Working remotely with Aboriginal mob (with Dr George Loram)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about working very remotely.

In this episode, we'll explore the realities of working in very remote mental health settings, how to adapt your practise across cultural context, and what it means to work in a culturally safe way with aboriginal communities. Our guest today is Dr. George Loram. Hi, George.

[00:00:31] George: Hey. Thanks for having me, glad to be here.

[00:00:34] Bronwyn: Could you please start off by telling listeners who you are?

[00:00:37] George: Yeah, I guess that's, that's a big question, hey? I'm a, I'm a psychologist. I work in, um, Alice Springs, um, I've been here for a couple of years now, about three years. Um, I like to play music. I live in a beautiful location. I dunno if you can see out the window behind me, but it's like lots of, um, yeah, just like nature. And I do lots of hiking here and camping, and I've just started doing, um, ceramics, that's my latest project. So I try and keep things interesting, like being a psychologist is definitely a big part of my identity, but do a few other things on the side as well.

[00:01:14] Bronwyn: Awesome. And yes, your background, it just looks really beautiful. There's like two windows of like lush trees and it looks really nice.

[00:01:20] George: Yeah, we're at the base of, um, like a mountain range and I don't know if listeners see the video or not, but, um, it's, yeah, it's a really beautiful spot and there's wallabies that like go through here every night and we just sit here and watch them, so it's pretty cool.

[00:01:32] Bronwyn: Ah, very jealous. It sounds amazing. So I guess we're all interested in how you came to be in your current location, so you're in Alice Springs?

[00:01:41] George: Yeah, I'm in Alice Springs, or Mparntwe which is a traditional name. Um, I'm from Melbourne originally, so did all my psych studies there, um, started in 2019, finished up in 2023 for my post grad. And they offered remote placements as part of the post grad.

First I did one in regional Victoria, which is not remote, but you know, it's different to working in the city. And then they offered this one in Alice Springs and I was like, oh, that sounds really interesting, and Melbourne was still in the grip of pretty hectic lockdowns, so I thought it was a good chance to learn a bit about, you know, Australia and you know, Aboriginal people and culture. Um, and also get out of the lockdowns at the same time.

I did a three month placement in 2021 and I fell in love with it pretty quick up here. So, kind of like six weeks into the placement, I remember calling my dad and I was like, I think I'm just gonna move here. Like, once I finish my thesis and finish, tick all the boxes, I think I wanna move back up here and, and work here.

And that's what I did. So I had to go back to Melbourne, finish my thesis, which, you know, took way longer than I expected to, as, um, is pretty common, and moved back up here in 2023. So I've been here about two and a half years consecutively since then.

So, yeah, that's kind of my story of how I ended up here . I didn't expect to, I didn't really know where I wanted to work while I was studying, I didn't have a clear idea, but once I did that placement, I was like, oh, this is, this is pretty cool.

[00:03:19] Bronwyn: I'm interested in what you love about it because it sounds like you may have grown up in the city and then now you're living in a remote location. What drew you to it?

[00:03:30] George: I don't think I've ever been a city person. Even though I grew up in like inner north of Melbourne, like very close to the city, uh, I always loved getting out of the city. Like my dad's family are from up in the Mallee, which is kind of Northwestern Victoria, up Mildura - Robinvale area. And I always loved going on trips up there and just like, you know, going on drives on bush tracks and camping and that sort of stuff.

So that's one thing that I love about being here. I also just love kind of raw nature, if that makes sense. In a city you have green spaces and creeks and stuff you can explore, but it, it's, it's kind of like... it's a bit too manicured for me. I really like that, like rugged, you know, just untouched or somewhat untouched, um, nature, that natural landscape. And I think it's really powerful having, like, being able to see a natural feature anywhere you are. So here in Mparntwe, like there's this mountain range that runs through town that's, it's massive. It's like, I think it's like five or 600 metres high, like it's pretty big, um, and you can just see it from everywhere. So I really like that it's, it's kind of like comforting in a way.

[00:04:46] Bronwyn: Yeah, you've painted this really beautiful picture of what it's like to live there. I can see why it appealed to you. Could you tell us a bit about the work that you're doing there as a psychologist?

[00:04:56] George: I'm currently split across like four different roles. So I work primarily for this big Aboriginal health organisation called, um, central Australian Aboriginal Congress. Uh, but we just call it Congress for short, and yeah, they're, they're massive, like they employ six or 700 people in town. And they have a lot of remote clinics, you know, out in the remote communities and they have lots of different health programmes. So I work in a team called the Social Emotional Wellbeing Team, or SEWB for short. And as part of that I work with Aboriginal people in town in Alice Springs. And I also go out remote to, uh, a remote community that's about an hour and a half from Alice. And, I also work at Headspace, so youth mental health. Um, I do that maybe two days a week. And then my last role is, uh, private practise. So I just started a little solo private practise last year, um, for clients in town. So yeah, like a lot of different jobs.

[00:06:00] Bronwyn: What's the deal with working so many different jobs? you like person who just loves different jobs or is it for a reason?

[00:06:07] George: Well, I recently got diagnosed with ADHD, so I like, makes a lot of sense for me.

[00:06:11] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:06:12] George: Yeah, just like having a lot of variety and I don't really like sitting in the one job all week, if that makes sense, or sitting in the same, yeah, role all week. So, I don't know, I, I get something really different from each role and like I love all of the different things that I get from the different roles. Um, and you just learn so much when you're working across so many different spaces, you just learn so much. It's like turbo learning or something, I don't know.

[00:06:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I've been recently looking into research about job satisfaction and variety is literally the number one predictor of job satisfaction across like all jobs.

[00:06:47] George: True?

[00:06:48] Bronwyn: -resonates with you!

[00:06:49] George: Yeah! Yeah, definitely. Like it just keeps it interesting and you get to be part of so many different teams as well. So we have like the big social emotional wellbeing team, which is like 45 people, but within that there's the, the, the Headspace psychologists, and then we have like the work and study team at Headspace, and then we have all the cultural liaisons and the cultural leads at Congress, and then obviously the remote clinics. So yeah, you just get to be part of different teams and again, you just learn stuff from everybody.

[00:07:18] Bronwyn: That's so cool. So what does a typical week look like for you up there?

[00:07:22] George: Maybe I'll use last week and as, as an example, 'cause last week was my week where I do all four different jobs. Um, so Monday is private practise, so that's just in town. We recently had some rain up here, which doesn't happen very often in Alice Springs, but when it does it really like strains the, um, infrastructure of the buildings. Like, so I was in a session with a client and it just flooded, um...

[00:07:45] Bronwyn: Oh!

[00:07:46] George: -while I was like having a session with a client, which was an interesting session, um, when they were helping me put buckets on the floor and catch the water and stuff.

[00:07:54] Bronwyn: Active session!

[00:07:54] George: So there was that, yeah, definitely an active session! And then Tuesday and Wednesday last week, I drove out to the remote community that I go to and, uh, I stay out there overnight. So, I drive out there on the Tuesday morning... I'll go to Woollies first and get a whole bunch of food for, uh, a men's barbecue that I run out there.

And then I get out there, you know, sort of 11 o'clock or something, go check in with the clinic, see what's been going on, talk to the GP and stuff. And then spend a, most of the day driving around community catching up with people. Having like one-on-one sessions, doing some group stuff, doing a lot of like informal just, you know, community engagement stuff. Like, yeah, just seeing what's been, what's been happening out there.

And then, yeah, obviously stay the night out there. So finish, finish work at five, and then just stay in a little, a little donga out there. Sorry, donga is a word for like, just a little, you know, house.

[00:08:51] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:08:52] George: And then Wednesday, uh, I run the men's barbecue or I co-facilitate a men's barbecue men's group out there with, um, a local fell who lives out there and works for the clinic as well. So that involves driving out to like a riverbed just outta the community, and all the riverbeds are dry usually. So we just set up there and we start a fire and we get some like sausages and stuff cooking. And then we roast like kangaroo tail on the fire, um, and that takes a couple of hours to cook. So we wait for that to cook and sit around and have a bit of a yarn, um, with all the fellas.

It's a pretty like, varied role out there. Like sometimes you might get five people rock up, sometimes you might get 15, like last week was really good 'cause we had a lot of older fellas and then, um, really young fellas as well, like the young teenagers and stuff. Um, so that was really cool.

Back into town, pack up or do all that stuff, uh, then a Headspace Day. So Headspace is kind of a private practise model here, so you, you just have a bunch of clients that are booked in. And then my Friday was seeing clients in town, like Aboriginal clients in town, um, through Congress and yeah, those days, no two days look, look the same. Like sometimes you might have heaps of people that you see and sometimes you might not. Um, it's kind of hard to book appointments, yeah, I guess in that Western model that, that we've learnt in. Um, so it's really varied. Yeah, anyway, that was a big, a big explanation of a week, but that's what it looks like.

[00:10:29] Bronwyn: No, it's really cool for listeners to hear because they're really interested in people's different careers and what work looks like. So it was a good explanation, thank you.

[00:10:37] George: Okay, cool.

[00:10:37] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, so it sounds like you work a lot with Indigenous Aboriginal clients, is that right?

[00:10:43] George: Yeah. Yeah, probably like maybe 60 to 70% of my work is with, um, is Aboriginal people up here.

[00:10:52] Bronwyn: Yeah. And had you worked with Aboriginal people before moving up to Alice?

[00:10:57] George: No, not really. Um, we, I guess did some training, it sounds like the wrong word, but we we did some, yeah, like in, in the post-grad course, we did kind of learn about Aboriginal mental health a bit. But yeah, I hadn't actually worked with, um, an Aboriginal person up until I did my placement here.

[00:11:17] Bronwyn: Okay, so I'm interested, like, what's it, what's it like and um, and what have you learned?

[00:11:24] George: Yeah, it's, I mean, I, I love the work here. That's, I guess, pretty clear, um, given that I'm still here like three years later. I don't know, it's, it's just, I was talking to the cultural lead at Headspace about this today, actually... she was just saying like, you've just really gotta be a person first and then a psychologist second. And I really, it took me a while to be comfortable with that shift. Um, but once I was, it really opened things up for me and allowed me to build really good relationships with people and feel a part of the community in a way that's, I guess, different in the cities. Obviously you can feel part of the community in the city, it's just, it's just different up here, um, and probably in other remote places as well. Like, people get to know you and you, you're not always chatting about psychology. You might just be talking about the footy or, you know, the weather or whatever it is.

A lot of the people that I, I work with, like my clients at, out bush, are just really funny as well, like have a great sense of humour and a really down to earth. And a really wise, like, there's just so much wisdom obviously in Indigenous cultures more broadly, um, but particularly in the community they go to, like just being able to hear stories from people that have been passed down from, you know, their ancestors and how they, how they live off the land or lived off the land. It's a really big question, like I've, I've learned so much, but it's hard to, it's hard to put it into words, you know what I mean?

[00:13:05] Bronwyn: Well, I'm interested in a few aspects of what you said. The first thing was be a person first and psychologist second, and I'm interested in what a psychologist means to you. Like that word, what would it mean if you were a psychologist first?

[00:13:21] George: Yeah, well this is the thing that I struggled with early on in my job when I was going out remote, because I didn't really know that I was gonna go out remote until I got the job, because Congress has so many different clinics and, and programmes, they kind of just split you across different programmes , and you learn to adapt, I guess, to those different, those different roles.

When I started going out to community, you know, I'd go out there with my little referral sheet and like, my list of people who were on, on my books and just trying to, just trying to, I guess, sell myself to people, if that makes sense. I was like, "hey, I'm, I'm here, I'm, I'm here to help, like, what can I do?" And I just wasn't getting much, like people didn't really wanna talk to me. It wasn't overt, it wasn't like they were like, oh, get outta here... but there's certain little code words out bush, and now in retrospect, I know that they're code words, but at the time I didn't.

Um, but you know, you, the way you approach someone's house out bush is you drive up with your car, so like your work car, and you set out the front gate and you beep twice, and then someone will come out and say like, oh yeah, who you looking for, and you'll tell them and they'll go and look for that person. And then, they'll either come back and say, oh, yeah, they'll come out in a sec. Or they'll say like, oh no, they're asleep, or they're in town, or they're over, they're up the hill, they're over there.

And I've heard stories of like psychologists going around, community just being led on like a wild goose chase all day like, oh no, they're up there, they're down there. But like, it's, it's intentional in a way. It's like they, they don't want to see you. Um, and people will know that, that, that that person doesn't wanna see the psychologist who's coming or whoever, they might not even know who I am.

And rather than like saying that, 'cause that's like a, that's rude to say that you just kind of delay it, you know, and it's not, it's not malicious or anything like that. It's just like, no, I don't, I, I'm busy, I don't wanna catch up or, or whatever it might be. So, what track were you on? Oh yeah, what does it mean to be a psychologist? So-

[00:15:33] Bronwyn: I'm interested. Do you feel like that has changed for you maybe with your person first approach?

[00:15:39] George: Totally. Yeah, I, I think once I gave myself that permission and yeah, just to be a person and not put so much pressure on like seeing everyone on my list, that really opened things up for me. It's like it gave things a bit of space to breathe.

Um, yeah, I think my conception of what a psychologist is has definitely changed because, 'cause I did the doctorate, like it was very academic and you kind of get placed in that expert role, I guess, just by osmosis. Like you're you're doing, um, you're doing all these important research meetings and yeah, I don't know, I think you can just come into things with a bit of, uh, you're a bit idealistic when you first start, right?

So I had to really step back from that expert role, um, "expert", 'cause I didn't really feel like I was an expert. But, you know, just taking that, that title away a bit and being like, okay, well maybe my role at the moment is to just keep showing up and like be consistent you know? Um, and again, coming back to that being a person first thing, um, the boundaries are probably a bit more, a bit more blurry out in community. Um, which I, which, which I think is actually culturally appropriate.

Like I guess we often learn at uni that you shouldn't tell people anything about yourself and like that blank slate kind of thing, which I think is becoming less favoured these days. Um, but you know, you get those old school psychotherapists who are like, no, they should know anything about you. So yeah, once I started opening up a bit more to people, with- within like reason about myself, that opened things up as well.

[00:17:18] Bronwyn: There's so many things that resonate with me. I really like what you were saying about being a person and also opening up. It reminds me, so, um, my first placement was with older adults, and on my first day of placement, I made, all the older adults by instruction from my manager, I made them all a raspberry jam slice and I made them tea and coffee. Um, and I was like, is this my life? Like, is this what a psychologist does? Um, and then I learned, but it's, it's the work, it's actually being a human and it's being a person. And then we talked about the food and it opened up conversations and it really just reminds me of what you're talking about. It's like once you get out of your head what a psychologist is supposed to be and be a human, you can relate with people much better.

[00:17:59] George: Totally. And that's what our job is at the end of the day. Like it's being able to relate to people, um, and yeah, hopefully help them in some way on their, their journey, right?

But yeah, food food's a really interesting one because again, that first couple of months of going out bush, I was like, am I just a really well paid like barbecue chef? Like, like, I had oil all over my shirt and I was like, just cooking all these like woolly- woolly sausages and stuff. And I was like, what, I, I don't think I've had a proper session in like two months, like, what's going on? But yeah, again, you just gotta build those connections with people, and food's a really, really good way to do it.

[00:18:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, food's a great way. And so I guess this ties into what I wanted to know about culturally safe care when working with Aboriginal people. It sounds like being a human, opening up about yourself within reason, um, food, it's like these are culturally safe ways... could you just tell us a bit more about that?

[00:18:55] George: Yeah, I mean, I guess it, it depends so much on the people that you're working with. Like every community is gonna have its own, I guess, cultural protocols. Um, protocol sounds like a clinical word, but you know what I mean, like, I guess things that are culturally appropriate. Um, I think another really big thing is just talking to like the key people in community. So they might be elders or they might be like just important families out there and telling them who you are and what you're out there to, to do. That's a really important one that again, it's taken me a while to learn that, but it makes a lot of sense in retrospect.

I mean, a lot of it is just being curious and listening. And again, I was talking to the cultural lead at Headspace about this today... you've just gotta spend a lot of time observing and listening and, and not jumping in too quick. It often takes a lot of time for Aboriginal people to build trust with you, and historically that makes a lot of sense. So you've got to, you've gotta be okay with that, like you've gotta be okay with the fact that it's gonna take a while to get that relationship solid and build that, that trust.

And just on the point of history, I think another really important culturally safe thing is, is to know history and know like the history that's happened, but not hold that guilt in yourself, if that makes sense. There's that idea of White Guilt, which is, um, yeah, I guess pretty, pretty common up here because a lot of people do come from the cities and are of, are often really like socially engaged in these issues and that guilt can actually prevent them from building those relationships.

[00:20:41] Bronwyn: Could you tell us a bit more about that? Like how does that prevent it?

[00:20:45] George: I guess if you're, if you're feeling guilty about something, it's like with, it's like with anything, right? If you're feeling guilty about something and you're having a conversation with someone, then you're holding something back because you're worried about saying the wrong thing. So I think it's similar to that in that, you have to acknowledge the history that, that's happened and acknowledge your own biases and maybe the ways you've benefited from, you know, structures or colonisation or, or whatever, you know, systemic thing it is. But then just, then just coming back to the present and like, meeting the person where they're at and being like, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm here to, to help with this certain thing. Like, let's do, let's do whatever we can. So, yeah, does that, does that make sense?

[00:21:32] Bronwyn: It totally makes sense. Yeah, and I, I guess it's just like, the way I am thinking about it from listening to you is that guilt can create disconnect between you and the other person, and you need to be in the present with them to foster that connection.

[00:21:46] George: Yeah, I mean, totally. That's, that's basically the crux of it.

[00:21:50] Bronwyn: So George, what do sessions actually look like with your clients, I guess most of whom are Aboriginal?

[00:21:58] George: I'll talk about the remote work first. Remote community staff. So a lot of it out there is driving around the car, which is great. I like, I love, you know, driving around and I think it's a really powerful thing 'cause you're both facing the same way and it's a bit less intense. Um, eye contact, you know, this will differ from community to community and different Aboriginal people who have different comfortability with this, but eye contact can sometimes be a bit too much, like directly sitting across from someone and just looking each other in the eyes, um, as it can be for anyone I guess. Um, but driving in the car seems to be a really good way to break that down a little bit because you're both focusing on something and the person is able to see their country as well, rather than being in a clinic room, or, yeah, in inside four walls.

The clinic out in the community I go to is, yeah, primarily a medical clinic. So there's not great spaces for social emotional stuff there. Um, they're going, they're doing renos at the moment, so hopefully that'll, that'll change soon. But yeah, I guess that's one of the reasons I have the work car out there, is that I can just drive around with people and then sometimes we go and sit down in the riverbed or recently, you know this, this one guy wanted to show me a spot that he used to go to as a kid and where he used to pick bush onions and he and bush medicine. And he took me out there and yeah, showed me all of that stuff and he seemed to really enjoy just being out there, 'cause sometimes people don't have the, the means to get out of community. Like there's so many mechanical issues out there, 'cause the roads are so rough, so it allows them to get out and connect with, connect with their country.

Another really interesting session I had out there was, like, 'cause I play guitar. I took my guitar out, um, for that trip, 'cause I was just gonna play some guitar after work. But I had it in the car, in the work car with me and me and a client had finished up a session at his place and I said, oh, do you wanna have a bit of a jam? Like I knew he was a guitarist, and then we just played guitar for half an hour and afterwards he was like. That was such a good session, like that was better than anything we'd ever done before. And I was like, what about all the fancy schema stuff we did and all of that? Like, he's like, no, this was, this was great, like, can we do this again, please?

[00:24:21] Bronwyn: That's awesome. It's like, it's awesome from the perspective of like, it's so good that they got so much out of it. And then like my mind is like, what about all my fancy training, man?

[00:24:30] George: Totally. Well, again, it comes back to that expert thing, right? Like sometimes it's good to just be a person and like, um, do something like that together. So again, once I gave myself permission to, to be a bit more like that, uh, it really opened up a lot of like relationships for me out there.

So, but yeah, to answer your question, like sessions, I guess look a bit different out there to the way they do in, in cities or in different, um, contexts. And the, the length might be different as well. You don't really stick to the 50 minute thing.

[00:25:01] Bronwyn: Oh really? Uh, so shorter or longer?

[00:25:04] George: Usually shorter, I would say, but then sometimes longer if like there's a story happening, you are not gonna wrap up and be like, all right, well, you know, it's five to two now. We better, better wrap things up. Like that story has to, that story has to come out.

[00:25:20] Bronwyn: Yeah. Are you an easygoing person? Because hearing you talk about this kind of stuff, like I feel like me and maybe other listeners and just psychologists in general, we might have a bit of, like, over-control issues and I'm like, this is like under-controlled... Just interested what you think?

[00:25:38] George: Yeah, I was actually thinking about this before we chatted today. Um, you know, we, we know that psychologists, like, if you look at the Venn diagram, it's like psychologists and like perfectionism and like obsessive, they're like, they're like the same circle, right? Like, not always, but like in general that's a pretty common experience. And yeah, I can definitely relate to that. Like after doing the D.Psych., I was... like you have to be kind of obsessive and perfectionistic and all those sorts of things. And you're always on deadlines and you've got this like little window of time where you can meet up with your supervisor and you've gotta be really organised.

So it was a really big shift going to, uh, remote community. Like I'm easy going in a way, um, but I really inwardly, like internally, I was really struggling with that lack of structure, and I think that was increasing my, my stress out there as well. Like I was really, really stressed, the first kind of, I don't know, four to six months I was going out there because I was thinking, what am I, what am I actually doing? Like what am I contributing right now? Like, where's my timetable, where's my schedule? Like, nothing runs on time, or at least not on our concept of time or like a Western concept of time out there, it's different. Um, and I never book sessions in out there. You know, it, it's, you'll call someone up and be like, "Hey, you, you want to catch up? Like you wanna have a yarn?" And then they'll either say yes or they'll be busy, or you might just go to someone's house and see what they're up to. Um, so it's been a big adjustment, but I think a good one for me.

[00:27:15] Bronwyn: How did you work through that? You mentioned it was stressful, what needed to happen within yourself, or maybe you received supervision or advice to work with that.

[00:27:24] George: Yeah... supervision always helps. I've got a really great supervisor who worked in Central Australia for a number of years, um, who isn't here anymore, but she is just like, she gets it, she gets the context, so that, that definitely helps. I think, internally, like looking at what, where that pressure was coming from, like what is at the root of this perfectionism or this, I don't know, obsession with structure and rules and all those sorts of things, I think it's partially external like factors, you know, having to comply with AHPRA guidelines and like, you know, all the stuff that we need to do to be like a safe psychologist, um, but, I think going through the academic pathway as well can really exacerbate those things that might have already existed in you. So yeah, just untangling that a bit. There was probably a bit of, uh, internal work that was, that was going on to get to where I am now.

[00:28:25] Bronwyn: And how are you feeling now? I guess you've been there for about a year, two years, or did you say more?

[00:28:31] George: This time I've been here about two and a half years, and then plus a three month placement. So, you know, coming up to three years in total. But yeah, in terms of how I'm doing now, I think I'm in a pretty good place at the moment with it. For a while it was really stressful, like having all the different roles and, you know, part of that was self-inflicted. I don't know why I decided to start a private practise, like while I was still figuring out all the other roles... but, yeah, I'm, I'm in a pretty good place with it at the moment, and I'm feeling more a part of the team, which I always did, but I'm drawing more on other people's like skills and knowledge and wisdom, and that's taking the pressure off me a bit as well.

[00:29:14] Bronwyn: And one of the things that I think people think of when they think of remote work are feelings of isolation or disconnection. I've spoken to some other psychs who are like, I drive 200K's to my next client, that sort of thing. Or I don't have anybody to call up 'cause reception is so bad where I'm at. Um, is isolation or disconnection an issue for you or a challenge?

[00:29:37] George: It is in a way, but also I think I'm really lucky in that I have Alice Springs as the base for the work I do. And in Alice Springs I feel really held and like part of a team or part of multiple teams, so I think that really helps. I dunno how I would go driving 200K's to, you know, see clients, but... yeah, with the isolation out in community, I think it again, comes back to how much pressure you're putting on yourself and really figuring out what, what your role is.

Like, obviously there are times when you really need to step up and like there'll be a current crisis situation or something like that, and you're drawing all of your clinical skills, um, when you need to. But I think really trying to take the pressure off yourself a bit and connect with the community. 'cause once you're connected with the community, that's, that's kind of like your team in a way. Once you're part of that community, people know you, like people will wave you down on the street and you, you don't feel as much of a sense of isolation. And then obviously peer supervision is like great as well, so that really helps with the sense of disconnection or isolation.

[00:30:51] Bronwyn: That's awesome. I have some questions that I don't have good segues to... um, which are isolated questions. One of them is what are some common misconceptions or what do you think people get wrong about working with indigenous communities or working remotely?

[00:31:09] George: I haven't seen much of what, um, people might get wrong or have misconceptions about, but I think one pattern I've seen is a high turnover, like coming for a little bit and kind of, again, I'm not talking about a specific person I've encountered or anything like that, but sometimes there is a bit of a sense of, you know, you can come in and drop straight into this work and do your, your six months or a year and then like, you know, go off to the next place... And I think it's, it's really, it's really not like that. Like you really have to kind of be in for the, the medium, if not long term, if you're gonna build those connections with the communities. I think there's ways you can, like speed up, building that connection with, with community, but yeah, by and large it's, it's like it's a bit of a long haul.

[00:32:00] Bronwyn: Mm. That's a really excellent point. Um, yeah, I love that you said that because it speaks to what you were saying about the relationship building, and I guess you mentioned before that Aboriginal people might take some time to trust you, and trust is built through long, consistent relationships, so it, it matches perfectly to what you just said.

[00:32:21] George: Yeah, totally. I came across this analogy recently, um, that my, my colleague out in community told me about, so he's, you know, he's a local fella, but he also works for the clinic, and he was just talking about this, this circle and, and the circle seems to be a theme that comes up a lot, um, when I'm working with Aboriginal people. But you're either like inside the circle or you're outside the circle, and when you're outside the circle, like people will tolerate you, but you're not gonna get the full picture. You, you might get, again, there's kind of like code words. You'll get the same phrases over and over again. Or like people just give you surface level stuff. And then once you're in the circle, that's when the trust is built, like people, people feel they can open up to you a bit more and share a bit more about what's actually going on because you've got that trust built.

[00:33:10] Bronwyn: Wow. Yep. Such a good way of describing that. Is there anything that you have learned about Aboriginal culture that you have just loved?

[00:33:19] George: I think the biggest thing is the languages, like how many languages there are up here, because again, growing up in a city, I didn't really have a conception of this until I moved out here, but you walk down the street, like the main street in town and you'll hear like, you hear like five different languages being spoken. And for a lot of people, yeah, for a lot of people, English might be their like third language or sometimes fourth language. And they can communicate with all the different like language groups around Alice Springs and sometimes they might even be able to understand languages from further away, further away or further up north.

So I think that's been something that's like really, I don't know, I've just found that amazing. Like I get chills when I talk about it 'cause it's like so cool to hear these ancient languages being spoken by people. And you know, I've only picked up a few words of, um, Arrernte is the, one of the main languages spoken in Alice Springs, but yeah, just hearing people speak it fluently is, it's a pretty cool experience.

[00:34:22] Bronwyn: Yeah, that would be incredible. Yeah, that sounds so cool.

[00:34:25] George: Yeah, and you know, I guess language is obviously a big part of the work we do, so that's another thing to be like mindful of... if you're talking to someone and and doing your kind of Western stuff in English, like that's potentially a barrier.

[00:34:39] Bronwyn: How do you work with that?

[00:34:42] George: Well like the fella I work out in community, he's been amazing 'cause he obviously speaks English and Arrernte, so he's, he's able to, I guess, interpret things for me, like, especially in the men's group kind of setting, like I'll say a bit of a, a spiel and then he'll kind of, you know, translate it, I guess, and translate some of those concepts. But the other thing has been to really catch myself when I'm using jargon.

[00:35:10] Bronwyn: Oh?

[00:35:11] George: Yeah, which I think is a good thing to do anyway, but I've really had to be conscious of it up here because so many times I'll like, say a word and then I'll be like, am I making sense when I say that? And they're like, no, I dunno what you, I don't know what that means. And it's not an, it's not an intelligence thing, it's just like a language thing. Like, like I said, if, if it's English is their third language, then they're not gonna have like the same level as someone who's grown up speaking English might have.

[00:35:40] Bronwyn: Totally. Yeah, that would've been an adjustment as well, because again, it's like through the training, you're using jargon all the time and you don't even realise that you're using it most of the time. So sometimes like words we wouldn't consider jargon are jargon to our clients.

[00:35:55] George: Uh, a hundred percent. And even things like words like initiate or, um, treatment or mod-, I would probably wouldn't use the word modality, but, um, intervention, like those sorts of things. Uh, and especially, yeah, sometimes words will have different meanings for people out there, so really good to, I guess, consider that. Like if you use the word treatment, people will be like, oh, whoa, what's, what are you saying? Something's wrong with me? Like, what do you mean? That's what the doctor says, the doctor says treatment? Um, yeah, so that's been an interesting adaptation as well.

[00:36:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, so cool. Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you really wanna share with listeners about working remotely and working with Aboriginal folk?

[00:36:36] George: Uh, there'll probably be heaps of stuff like when I'm lying in bed at 10 o'clock tonight that I'll remember, but I think the biggest thing is that there's so much wisdom out here, and the, the more that I've like spoken to, spoken to the cultural leads, like, so Congress has a cultural lead and Headspace has a cultural lead like these people who, um, are really embedded in the community and understand all these things... that's really helped me build relationships with the broader community.

 So I guess just acknowledging that like, you know, I'm, I'm here talking on this podcast, but there's so many people who like, do amazing work out here, um, that they, you know, they don't tell anyone about the work they do, but they're just like quietly going about it and building all these relationships and, and holding all of this knowledge. Um, so yeah, I'm pretty lucky to be able to work with those sorts of people.

[00:37:35] Bronwyn: Random question that popped into my head, but sometimes, um, like I see Alice in the news and sometimes it gets a real bad rap. I just wondered like, does that affect you?

[00:37:44] George: Alice is a really interesting town. There is, there's just so much trauma here like, there's a lot of trauma and a lot of, a lot of neurodivergence here. Like it's, it's just a really interesting place. It does get a bad rap in the media, like stuff does happen, but the media portrays it as like, you know, some sort of war zone, like the only time you hear about Alice is if there's like a bunch of people running down the street and smashing wind, smashing windows and stuff.

So yeah, that stuff definitely does happen. Like it's, it's a rough town in some ways, but I've never felt unsafe, you know. Like I've had my car window smashed and that's like a, you know, relatively common experience, but a lot of it's just like petty crime and a lot of it is driven by like hunger and boredom as well.

But yeah, I guess to answer your question, it definitely gets a worse rap than, uh, it, it deserves, and we've just got, actually got a new mayor in, um, Alice Springs, Asta Hill, who's- really wants to change the narrative of the town and have people, I guess, talk more about like all the amazing stuff that happens here because yeah, it is like a really vibrant, amazing community, and there's all these sorts of cool festivals, like, we have the Beanie Festival, which I've never heard anywhere else.

[00:39:00] Bronwyn: What's the Beanie Festival?

[00:39:01] George: It's literally a Beanie Festival. Like people send in beanies from all over the country, yeah. And they have like exhibition beanies and then they have the Beanie Marketplace where there's like 7,000 beanies, yeah. And then, you know, like, yeah, it's crazy.

And then last weekend we had this concert out in a, a gorge, it's called Ormiston Gorge. And it's like the Central Australian Women's Choir, which is all these like strong Aboriginal women, and they're all singing these songs in a choir and it's in this gorge. And it's like, this is crazy, like, am I even experiencing this?

[00:39:35] Bronwyn: Yeah, that's so awesome!

[00:39:37] George: Yeah, so there's so much good stuff happening here as well, and I, I do get sad when people don't come here because of the news they've heard.

[00:39:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, and I guess the reason why I asked is because, um, you know, I guess the stuff we hear, it's, it's like public stigma that can be internalised and sometimes that can get us down. But it sounds like from your experiences, the people who you know, and the amazing people who you work with, it's like you're able to counter that public stigma.

[00:40:04] George: Yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Like, there's just so much good stuff happening that I don't really focus that much on, on the bad stuff. Like I, I guess it's good to acknowledge that there are issues in Alice Springs, like there are with any town. Um, but yeah, there's just a lot of good stuff and a lot of good people doing good stuff.

[00:40:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, that's awesome. So I reckon that there are listeners who are like, wow, I wanna move to Alice or a remote area. I wanna do what George did, um, and you've inspired people... So what do you think would help early career mental health workers prepare for rural or remote areas?

[00:40:37] George: Wow, that's a really, really good question. I mean, I guess my pathway was I did a placement. So if that's an opportunity for people who are listening, like if you're still studying, looking into whether there are opportunities for remote placements. I know that, you know, our organisation, we've always got, we've always got students or provisional psychs coming through. So like, you know, we've got two every three months and we just kind of rotate throughout the year.

 It's hard before you actually move to a place and do this sort of work to prepare for it. Um, but I think kind of cultivating a sense of openness and really looking at your, yeah, maybe looking at your beliefs and your biases and, and what you think about your role and what your role is... and, and looking at, I guess, history, especially if you're coming thinking about working in Aboriginal communities or working with Aboriginal people, like understanding that history is gonna really gonna help you just have some more context for things. Like understanding the impacts of colonisation and intergenerational trauma and things like the, the intervention that happened here, you know, in pretty recent history. Like all these things will help you get a better sense of why things are the way they are.

And I also think something just popped into my head that... I was speaking to an Aboriginal fellow last week who I work with, and he was saying like, there's different ways of, being, and different ways of knowing. You know, there's like, there's different knowledge structures and obviously we come from like a Western, more of a Western style which is very like didactic and you know, go, you go to university to learn something. But the knowledge structures are different in aboriginal, you know, cultures and communities, and obviously it's different in each culture and community.

So just like, yeah, this, it probably sounds a bit vague, but it is kind of vague. It's like considering what your knowledge structures are and like what it would be like to shift those to a different way of, of being and doing.

[00:42:39] Bronwyn: I know you said it sounds vague, but it also sounds very deeply important for the work that you do, and it's like, I guess somebody who has recently completed their training, it's like we are taught in these Western conceptualizations and like a, I guess a positivist kind of philosophy of where like there's an objective reality and one truth that we are all agreeing to. And then what you are saying is that there are different ways of knowing which can seriously challenge, like our ways of thinking about reality and knowledge. So it's, yeah, it's deeply important, I guess what you're saying.

[00:43:12] George: Yeah, I think it is, it is really important and just kind of embracing that. Like, I remember when I started studying psych, I was like so hardcore in terms of like being a... what's the word where you... oh, deterministic, where like everything has a, a cause in the brain or whatever. Um, but I guess like since moving here, I've, I've kind of become a bit more like, a bit more spiritual in a way. Like I feel a bit more in touch with the land and I'm more open to like, spiritual explanations for things.

So I think it's good to be able to hold that knowledge because, I guess one thing we didn't talk about, but you know, the role of traditional healers or as they're caught up here, like Ngangkari, that's really important to like factor in to your work as well, like acknowledging that people will go and see a Ngangkari, and they might see you as well. It's like a two-way kind of thing. Um, so yeah, I guess honouring those, those healing traditions that have been around forever, like ever.

[00:44:09] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, that's so cool. Yeah. That's awesome. Uh, yeah, it's, it's really interesting hearing you say that. I remember when I was like 21, I went to Peru and one of our guides was like, do you guys believe in ghosts? And it was like an opportunity to tell us a ghost story, and I was like, no, I don't believe in ghosts. And I still kick myself for missing out on that ghost story. It's like not being open to different ways of knowing, it's like could've had something really cool.

[00:44:34] George: Totally. I've heard so many ghost stories up here, more than I've ever heard in my life. So if you're ever looking for one, you just come up to Alice.

[00:44:41] Bronwyn: Oh man. That's sick, yeah. Good reason to go.

George, it's been a pleasure to learn from you and speak with you and just learn from the various people you've worked with as well. Shout out to the clinical lead Headspace, um, for the input here, um, as well. Um, what do you hope that listeners will take away from our conversation today?

[00:45:01] George: I guess I was just hoping to give people a bit of an idea of what this work actually looks like so that people who might be interested in it can have a bit more information and, and make a bit more of an educated decision about whether they, they want to pursue this sort of stuff.

And I guess also just really trying to get people to open up a bit and just be open to like different ways of doing things, whether it's like how you deliver sessions or how long your sessions go for. Like I know we're constrained by Medicare and all these other like systems, but yeah, just thinking about what might be a different way to do things. And I know that there's so many people out there already doing that, you know, whether it's in more overt or less overt ways, but just thinking about how our kind of profession has developed, where these ideas have come from, and which ones it, it's good to hold a bit more lightly too.

[00:45:53] Bronwyn: Awesome. Thank you so much, George. If listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you and are you a supervisor?

[00:46:01] George: Um, I have a website, opiapsych.com. I think if you search Opia Psychology, it should come up. Um, I'm not a supervisor, although, I will be hopefully, um, early next year. I'm just waiting for that, you know, like three year thing before you can register as a supervisor. But I'm really keen to do that sort of work. So yeah, if people wanna reach out to me, um, I'm more than happy to chat.

[00:46:24] Bronwyn: That's awesome, and I'll make sure that link is in the show notes. Thanks again, George.

[00:46:28] George: Awesome. Thanks Bron, nice to chat to you.

[00:46:30] Bronwyn: Listeners, if you really enjoyed this episode, make sure that you put it into somebody's else's ears, it's the best way to get the podcast out there. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time, bye!