Protecting yourself from psychosocial hazards at work (with Amy Henderson)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about psychosocial hazards, what they are how to recognise the signs in ourselves, and how we can protect our wellbeing in the workplace.

If you've ever found yourself feeling burnt out, anxious, isolated, or overwhelmed at work and thought, maybe it's just me, this episode will help you zoom out and understand the bigger picture. Organisational psychologist Amy Henderson joins us to talk about how these symptoms can be signs of broader psychosocial hazards in the workplace and what we can actually do about them. Welcome to the podcast, Amy.

[00:00:43] Amy: Hi, Bronwyn, how are you?

[00:00:45] Bronwyn: Yeah, I'm good. How you going? Thanks for coming on.

[00:00:47] Amy: Yes, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:49] Bronwyn: Can you start off by telling listeners who you are?

[00:00:52] Amy: Yeah, who I am, that's always a, a difficult question. Where do I start? Uh, I guess most important thing, so I'm a mum to two boys. Uh, also I have two snakes, uh, one cat, one dog, four chooks, so, you know, surrounded by animals and, busy life. I, also enjoy painting and arts crafts, that sort of thing.

But I guess in my day job, I'm an organisational psychologist, but I do a bit of a hybrid role. So I work in org psych project type work with, you know, larger organisations and then one-on-one, private practise. So do more of that therapy work. So yeah, that's me.

[00:01:35] Bronwyn: Can I ask about the snakes?

[00:01:37] Amy: Yes. What would you like to know?

[00:01:39] Bronwyn: Who, who wanted them.

[00:01:41] Amy: Uh, well I could blame my son, but really it was me because, uh, he just loves reptiles and yeah, so we got one snake and then I got a bit of, uh, FOMO so I ended up getting one as well. So that's why we have two.

[00:01:57] Bronwyn: Do they like each other? Do snakes like each other?

[00:02:00] Amy: They're a very self-involved animal. Like they don't actually like too much contact, but um, and they're not in there together 'cause you have to breed one's a boy, one's a girl. So you have to have a breeder's licence to be able to breed them. And so we don't want any accidents.

[00:02:16] Bronwyn: That makes sense. That is an awesome menagerie of animals.

[00:02:19] Amy: It is, yeah. We just don't let them talk to each other. My cat actually sits on top of the snake cage and sometimes the snake will go up to try and say hi to her and she will just look down and it's like, yeah, that's her tv, I think.

[00:02:33] Bronwyn: Yeah. Great tv.

[00:02:35] Amy: Yeah. Uh, very entertaining.

[00:02:38] Bronwyn: So one of the things with, uh, being an org psych is that you came a bit late in the game to org psychs. I mean, you had, it sounds like you had had kids and then you came back to study. I think listeners would just be interested in knowing, like what prompted you to come back into study?

[00:02:54] Amy: Yeah, that's a, a really good question. I almost feel like I never left study, but... so, I first started doing, uh, commerce and psych double degree. Uh, so the commerce being HR and IR and then the psych. Uh, I'd sort of gone through that and then life changes as it does, and I ended up, uh, dropping the psych at that point and just focusing on the commerce, 'cause I did, I could do that externally, and at that time I went and did FIFO.

And then a few years later, I ended up in a local mining company and then I returned back to the psychology and finished that off. And then pretty much worked in HR and more employee relations over that time. And then sort of had one of those other life moments of, look, I really want the org psych part, so I really wanna go and do Masters. So that sort of got me out of mining into back to study again and yeah, finishing off Masters and, and here I am now, voila.

[00:03:55] Bronwyn: What draws you to org site in particular? Like, yeah. What do you like about it?

[00:04:00] Amy: Oh, It's so interesting, so varied, and I love that you could be... You can zoom in, like you said before the zoom in thing, so you can zoom right into one individual person with one issue and see the impact or make an impact on them and their life trying to, you know, support them or help them or give them some information or something. And then right up to organisational culture that big giant... do assessments and point them in, in, you know, different directions that can help build that culture, that is then a big impact, well, it's a big impact, but it's a little impact just across a very broad, you know, organisation, very broad system. So yeah, it's, it's so interesting.

[00:04:49] Bronwyn: And I guess like work is so central as well to many people's lives, so it's really like the intersection between psychology and work, which is, yeah, quite central.

[00:04:58] Amy: A hundred percent, I do. I see, you know, HR and that sort of end of things. And then org psych in the middle there, and then psychology more, the clinical psych down the other end. And it really is that bit in the middle. So the HR, it's very str- org psych's, much more strategic I, I would say, than HR generally. But there's some brilliant HR strategists. I'm not gonna, you know, step on their toes. Um, and also with the ethics and the integrity that comes with the psychology end of things, evidence-based practise interventions are really well proven. So they're not just, here's a good idea, let's run with that and, you know, try not to hurt people. But yeah, so I like that.

[00:05:41] Bronwyn: No, I think that's really cool. And I love how you pointed out the evidence base and it just prompted me to remember, it's like sometimes you see, for example, like quizzes that people need to take as part of recruitment, and I've seen some of these quizzes and I'm like, these just look made up, like what's the evidence base of some of these, you know? And it's like, I think just a psych brings like a nice evidence-based lens to, I guess, all of the processes involved in organisations and recruitment and employment.

[00:06:07] Amy: Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:09] Bronwyn: So one interest area for you is psychosocial hazards. could you tell us why this became an interest area for you?

[00:06:17] Amy: Well I think, uh, with my HR experience, it was almost, like with a different name though, almost always, psychosocial hazard. Of some sort. Uh, 'cause I guess HR really is dealing with the people side of things, less the physical hazard side of things. I mean, that's changing now, hR and safety are, are much more aligned, but back then it was more siloed, HR behaviour, people stuff, uh, safety, physical hazard stuff.

So, so yeah, my interest was always there in terms of bullying or burnout or job fit or, providing guidance and things on any structural change that would make, uh, people work longer hours or less hours or, or, you know, those sorts of things. And recruitment and FTE and making sure you've got, again, job fit and that.

But then more recently, uh, just getting involved in projects that specifically focus on psychosocial hazards. So, uh, a recent one with, um, WorkSafe, you know, looking at education around that. So, I'm talking to inspectors and I'm, you know, doing, looking at a lot more research and talking to experts in the field and really getting a better understanding of what it looks like on the ground for people regulating psychosocial hazard.

[00:07:36] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I think that's really awesome and it sounds very interesting. Could you help us understand what exactly are psychosocial hazards? 'Cause I reckon or psychs would know what they are and I reckon people who work with people who, um, are, have workers' compo claims and stuff like that would know what they are. Um, but I think people may be involved in more clinical work wouldn't... I know I didn't.

[00:07:56] Amy: Yeah. Yeah. And they are a little bit of a tricky sort of hazard to pinpoint. I, I do sometimes correlate them with physical hazards just to provide, just to show where the language fits, 'cause most people intuitively get physical hazards.

[00:08:14] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:08:15] Amy: Say a physical hazard... so they're hazards and risks, right? So a physical hazard is a thing that has the potential to harm someone. So let's say, uh, falling, um, you know, working at heights... so the working at height part is the hazard, so it might be a three, uh, platform, three metres from the ground or something like that. So that's the hazard. The risk is that they'll fall.

So in terms of psychosocial hazards, say the hazard might be, uh, long work hours, the risk is fatigue or the risk is even burnout. So, you know, that's sort of how it fits. And yeah, so all those psychosocial hazards are things like that, that are, that have the potential to cause harm.

[00:09:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, so it's like, um, if I think over employer's obligations, it's like they have an obligation to make sure the workers aren't exposed to the hazard, which be the long work hours to prevent the risk, which is the burnout.

[00:09:16] Amy: Yes, that's right. And they do, I don't know if you've heard of a, a risk, uh, matrix. So it's got on one side, what's the likelihood of the, the risk occurring and what's the consequences if it occurs? And so let's say, uh, again, back to the physical staff are falling from heights, the likelihood of them falling if they have, say, no falls protection on and there's nothing around it, is actually probably pretty high. And from three metres consequence could be death. So you sort of right up there in the top right quadrant

Likewise with psychosocial hazards, you go, okay, so we've got four practitioners but a caseload really that would suit eight practitioners. And so that's, the hazard, you know? So what's the likelihood of that? Or the risk is, you know, burnout or again, fatigue, disengagement or a bunch of things, so what's the likelihood of that that would happen? Well, pretty high. So you're right up there.

And what's the consequences? Well, you know, you could probably, burnout is probably the worst consequence that over time is probably gonna be out there. So that then is in that top right quad quadrant as well of, you know, this needs to be addressed.

[00:10:30] Bronwyn: No, that makes a lot of sense. I'm gonna guess that people in different industries would have different likelihood of different psychosocial hazards. Does that sound right?

[00:10:41] Amy: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[00:10:42] Bronwyn: Okay, cool. Um, and then so like there must be ones that maybe are more likely to occur for people who work in mental health. And I'm thinking mental health workers, they work in... I know 40% of us work in private practise and then others work in not-for-profits, NGOs. Um, some work for, you know, mining companies and staff, or work in hospitals or people with disability and disability settings and stuff like that. What might be some of the psychosocial hazards that people who work in mental health might encounter?

[00:11:11] Amy: Yeah, it's, it's funny 'cause say something like, uh, isolated work, uh, you can see that with individuals in the mining industry because they literally are flying away and working in an isolated site on a camp somewhere. That isolation can be in terms of having other people that they can talk to. Yeah, it's not the sort of job you can just go chat with a friend about. It's just, you know, the confidentiality is so strict that you can't just have a chat like other people can, if they, you know, gripe about their work. So that then can make them feel quite alone and isolated anyway.

And then I think caseloads seem to be quite a thing, that the workload for a lot of, uh, early career psychs and that sort of thing that I've noticed. I think there and, and I've coached a few, I guess, younger individuals, but really it's less that they're young, more that they're just, um, new to the field... and maybe new to working generally is really knowing where those boundaries are. And so that they'll be doing reports on the weekends and they'll be doing, uh, you know, staying after hours to finish things off, and I've just kept pushing them to say, look, say no, like, that's your time now, that's quite damaging for you actually in the longer term. And this is a career you want for your whole life, so you're trying to create sustainable habits within themselves as well as, you know. It is a sign of a systemic issue though, yeah.

[00:12:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, that, that work boundaries, um, the isolation, um, is bullying one that you reckon might come up for people who work in mental health or is that one more broadly? Like, is that a psychosocial hazard?

[00:12:55] Amy: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, it's definitely in there. And it's one that's, that's certainly been legislated for a very long time. Uh, you know, anti-discrimination and, um, you know, respect at work has been certainly flavour of the month a few years ago, and now it's the psychosocial hazard. So, bullying is always been there and I think will almost always exist where there's a power imbalance, which I think, you know, at risk people are... uh, you know, younger people, for example, people less experienced, people with less authority in the organisation, uh, you know, neurodiverse people, um, unfortunately LGBTQIA+, uh, individuals and, you know, so the sort of people who are at risk. Sometimes people who are also mental health practitioners.

[00:13:50] Bronwyn: Totally. No, that makes a lot of sense. Um, so what kind of things might people be feeling or symptoms they might start to notice if they're being exposed to psychosocial hazards?

[00:14:03] Amy: Yeah. Again, it's a pretty tricky one. Let's say if you fall from a height, it's gonna hurt. You're gonna know instantly. Cause effect, done. But let's say a physical hazard, something like hearing loss happens so slowly over time, you wouldn't actually be aware of it, and it takes a specialised audiologist to detect the shift.

So sometimes psychosocial hazards can be that way as well. Uh, so something like a trauma, you know, that might result in PTSD or something like that, that's going to be fairly acute, but the chronic ones over time are harder to pick up. But I think, having said that, I think there are certain tells that you see, um, and hear from people.

And part of that I think is really knowing yourself, so knowing where you've shifted a little bit. And those things might be by the time you get to a weekend, you just can't be bothered doing the fun things you used to do before because you're just so tired, you know? And we might put it down at as winter and we might put it down as well, this is just a busy period of time. But it's when that just consistently keeps happening to a point where you might not even notice that you don't catch up with your mates for Saturday evening drinks anymore. You, it might not even be that obvious. So that's why tracking it and sort of noticing, hang on, I've I've got that booked in for next Saturday, yes, and I'm really looking forward to it. And you know, those sorts of things.

I think also. I if you'd ask a friend or your partner or family member, someone like that, you know, how often do you talk about work? Because sometimes they will notice you and changes in you more than what you'll notice. One, it might be that you just, all you can do is talk about work, like the, just the gripes of my boss. I just have to work so hard. You know, those sorts of things, I mean. Or that you are more irritable or you seem a bit snappy, or you're always saying you're tired... You. Know those sorts of things you might hear as well from family that you don't even pick up from yourself.

[00:16:08] Bronwyn: That's really good insights because I think something that early career psychs might find difficult is they might be like, is it something to do with me? Like, is something wrong with me, or is this a hazard in my environment? And it sounds like if they know themselves quite well, then they can recognise their changes like that are occurring in relation to their environment rather than this is something normal with me.

[00:16:31] Amy: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Because that, that is a question, is it? Um, it's not you, it's me. Like who exactly is it? And therefore, I, I think the worst outcome of that for a, an early career psych or mental health professional is that they think, I'm not cut out for this. When it, they might be they, they really might be, it's just the nature of the work is actually. Really draining them and just not supporting them to have that sustainable career.

So yeah, often I think if you can see like sort of monitor yourself and notice those changes from that, you can then go, look, is it, is it something in my life? How did I feel at the start? Was I enthusiastic? When did I last feel that? What sort of things have led to me feeling like this, so some deep exploration. And, and lots of psychologists see psychologists as well for their own mental health support, or a close friend or even a, a coach or someone like that, that you can just talk about your career goals and things like that as well, so that you're finding, again, that job fit, 'cause sometimes it isn't for them.

Um, but yeah, I think say if you've always been just that person that, uh, thrives on helping and supporting people, and then if you found yourself in that sort of work and it wasn't supporting you anymore, or you weren't, you weren't getting any satisfaction out of it, I think that might be a sign that it isn't you, it's, it's them.

Uh, but if you can look back and go, actually you know, I've never really enjoyed it and I struggled through uni and the placements I liked for the project ones not the clinical ones, and this was better and that wasn't... that might give an indicator that no, that's your style and that's your, you know, your personality type and finding a job that fits that might be better suited.

[00:18:25] Bronwyn: Yeah, that makes really good sense. So it could be like, yeah, like you say, if we have a history where we've kind of struggled, maybe, maybe it isn't the right fit for us, like this line of work, and there are other areas in mental health or outside of it that they could explore. But if they've always done well and then something changes in their work environment, like let's say they, um, had to see three clients a day and then it's gone up to six clients a day and then they're struggling because of that maybe it's something to do with the workplace itself.

[00:18:51] Amy: Yes, exactly. As well As it, maybe there's something going on in a personal life. Maybe they've just had a baby and trying to sustain those same hours aren't working now. Maybe they've had a health scare, a relationship breakup... all these things add to stress and a job that you might normally be able to manage quite fine with your own, uh, self support and things like that might just be more taxed. But again, that, that what you just said then, the what's changed part, so if what cha- what has changed is now your client load has doubled and everything else being equal is kind of the same, well that might point to that being the cause.

[00:19:28] Bronwyn: Absolutely. So I reckon this would be a common situation what I'm about to describe, is that somebody recognises, look, it's not me, I think it's actually the workplace. Um, but they're too scared to speak up. What's, what's their rights here and how can they start a conversation, maybe with their manager safely about this? Or should they just pipe down and not say anything?

[00:19:51] Amy: Uh, that's a, it's a tough question because to say what they should do and then to know and understand what people feel safe doing, uh, two different things, I think. And that's where psychological safety comes into it. You know, to be able to, to feel safe, to be able to speak up and address issues and admit you might be struggling and those sorts of things, that's where psychological safety comes into it. And if that's the case, then certainly raising it with your supervisor and. Uh, and or colleague and just sort of saying, you know, this is how I'm feeling, and they might be able to... certainly a supervisor or your, your boss, basically they, 'cause they can actually, well hopefully they have the authority to change some things around for you. Uh, it's worse if they go, well actually I can't do anything about that then, you know, then you're a bit stuck.

You should always have the right to talk. You always have the right to make a complaint, uh, legally, morally, ethically, and all those things, but, uh, understandably that, uh, it can be difficult to do that. So in those cases, or if they're afraid that making a complaint might lead to some sort of negative repercussions, which again, is illegal if that happens, but... You know, lots of things are illegal that happen. Uh, if that's the case, they can, there's a, there's different things that they can do.

So say for something like bullying and harassment or something along those lines, uh, Fair Work legislation covers that here in WA anyway. So they can actually, uh, the Fair Work investigators will go in and do an investigation and determine if there's been a breach of the Fair Work Act. Uh, and they can issue a notice to the company to get them to stop the bullying or whatever it might be.

WorkSafe, or now it's called LGIRS Local Government, uh, Industry Regulation Safety, they've just changed their name again. Uh, they will also do the same thing looking at it from a safety perspective. And so the work health safety legislation, that's what they, they regulate. So again, go in, investigate and see if there's been a breach of the Act. And the same thing again, they can issue an improvement notice or even, up to prosecution, just depending on the nature of the breach and how much notice the company has had and those consequences and everything.

Uh, there's also the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission can get involved, again, if that, if there's something that breaches that legislation. So if a person, let's say they might be bullied because of, uh. A specific factor to them. If they might have a disability, they might certain gender, a certain, uh, racial background, things like that, that fit under their, um, yeah, their umbrella.

So there's different things and not one size fits all. There's also Work Cover workers' compensation, you've said right at the start. Often comp people are aware of this because of these hazards that are coming through. They do the same thing again, it's that legislation, they'll investigate and then determine, accept or whatever. But that, that goes through a claims process, which is a bit different.

But, so there's different places you can go and talk to people. The Ombudsmans, um, when I've phoned them, made inquiries on behalf of clients, they've been very receptive, so informative and really helpful. And that's-

[00:23:29] Bronwyn: That's really good to hear.

[00:23:30] Amy: Yeah, exactly. And that's without taking, um, taking anything further, it's just knowing your rights.

[00:23:36] Bronwyn: No, that's really helpful to know. I think, um, a lot of psychologists, particularly younger psychologists, that they just don't have an awareness of what their rights are in the workplace. Like I know we all get that work, health and safety like one pager, PDF sort of thing, but it's kind of like, okay, yeah, I'm starting work here, we don't really read it, we should. Um, but yeah, it's good to know all these other things.

[00:23:56] Amy: Yeah, exactly. I think knowing right, it's being empowered is just so important because otherwise you, you know, especially with psychosocial injury, you could just continue to be harmed because you don't feel safe in speaking up or you feel you might just leave, that's better than trying to address it, which is also understandable. But still just leaves that workplace and those systems, you know, in a harmful way, so...

[00:24:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. I'm wondering what role managers and organisations play in preventing psychosocial harm? And I guess like the first thing is like, do they have an obligation to prevent it in their workplaces, and if so, how can they do it?

[00:24:37] Amy: Yeah, a hundred percent. They're called, uh, well, it's different things, but they're called PCBU's, so that's person conducting a business or undertaking, that's the legislation. So they, they have a legal responsibility to address all hazards, including psychosocial hazards. Uh, address being, uh, identify, manage, prevent that sort of, their, their main thing. The maturity level of organisations, given this is relatively new legislation, it's really focusing on those psychosocial risks, yeah, a lot of them are still going through their education process and just really trying to understand what they look like. But absolutely they have a legal responsibility in where they can actually be individually penalised and certainly the organisation can be prosecuted, like I imagine if they really breach it significantly.

[00:25:32] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:25:33] Amy: And 'cause psychosocial hazards are a systemic issue, they're not just the one offs, and they're not just a, he said, he said thing... it's a, they, they are a sign that there's a system failure or a systemic failure. So a manager, the senior leaders, supervisors, et cetera, are responsible for the system. And so that's the big stuff, yeah, policies and procedures and education, training, hiring practises, making sure you're hiring people with the right values... you know, the, the big stuff, not just the, I've got to do some mindfulness exercise every day to deescalate my stress, but big, stuff of, yeah, job design and all of those things.

[00:26:16] Bronwyn: So, so they do have a legal obligation and they should be doing things to minimise to us, the employees.

[00:26:22] Amy: Exactly, yeah, you said more succinctly.

[00:26:25] Bronwyn: Oh, you, I like the way you described it. I only described it succinctly because of your excellent explanation.

[00:26:30] Amy: Oh, thank you.

[00:26:35] Bronwyn: So okay, I've got, first question that I've got, I have many more questions, but this is one that's on my head.... what role do psychologists play in helping clients who are exposed to psychosocial hazards? I know that, I guess like I've been in a situation before and like this is just a general scenario, but let's just say you have a situation where there's a client, they are encountering, like bullying at work, they have a crappy workplace. What's the psychologist's role in this? What can we do to help?

[00:27:02] Amy: I would say that very similar to many other presentations. So if someone's there with an anxiety depression, a substance abuse problem, or, or similar, it's. I think part of the work, like, well maybe that, um, the case formulation of what, you know, what exactly is the issue, how long has it been there for, um, why now? Yeah, all of those same things, because I as the, even as a psychologist, you're trying to think, is this, is this a once off? Like where's the problem here? Is it a a relationship thing or is it an individual thing? So you know, so someone with a depression and then you find out that they're getting bullied at work and that's- they've been depressed in so long as this person's been bullying them for the last six months, well, that probably tells you that that's, you know, prior-

[00:27:59] Bronwyn: -is pretty clearly linked.

[00:28:01] Amy: So then can, then you can start to explore that. If they've always had depression and, and they might even have a history of being bullied throughout their whole career, it might be more about what, yeah, what are those thoughts around bullies? What are their behaviours, uh, to, to try and help them... like it doesn't excuse bullying and that's not the point, but it might be, uh, some of their interactions that are rubbing people the wrong way, maybe? . Again, bullying's not allowed, it's, it is just a zero tolerance on it. But some people also can, you know, could do something else for themselves that might just serve them better.

[00:28:44] Bronwyn: Yeah, so we can look at their parts in these interactions and maybe explain to them some of the things you're explaining to us beforehand, like the options and avenues available to them.

[00:28:53] Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think, and, I've certainly used that myself in clinical practise saying, well, here are some, you know, there, there is Work Safe, there are these avenues. And certainly as you would've too, um, like done their psychological support for clients going through a workers' comp claim or going through that process. So there are, you know, trying to support them with that while they go through it can be helpful.

But, and I think it's the same thing of what, what thoughts are coming up for them, uh, helpful and unhelpful? What can they control and not control? 'Cause that's the thing when they, uh, say with a psychosocial, uh, injury may be a result of a hazard that they actually can't control. So again, work pressure or something like that, because they're running two or three people down, and so everyone's taking up that additional workload. So it is the real focus on, well, what can this person do about that? They might not to go and hire another couple of people, but what can they do about that for themselves? So can they, uh, make sure that they leave at that time every day? What are their feelings around dropping some of the work? 'Cause they can't get to it because that will then at least hold them within the hours that they need to be working for their own health.

So, you know, sometimes there's a bit of that to just help them manage things in the hope that those systemic issues will change over time or they can go through those other processes and, you know, fix some of that, you know, that I mentioned before.

[00:30:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, totally.

Amy, I've learned a lot from you today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I think listeners would just be interested in learning where your career is headed next as an org psych. I think a lot of people are actually interested in getting into a psych, and they wanna know what it looks like now in the future, yeah. So where are you headed?

[00:30:46] Amy: Wow. That's such a great question. I'm so excited about that because I, I will often be asked by, uh, friends and friends and friends and family of friends or just random people about org psych and how you get into it and what sort of work you do and all those fabulous things.

So often, let's say if someone was at ground zero, hadn't gone to uni or done psychology or anything like that, then... you know, given it's an eight year pathway, I would let them know that, it's an eight year pathway. There are, you know, you've got six months if you go, if you, well, you have to do your masters in org psych anyway, which is competitive to get in, now there's only one uni in WA that offers that. And then there's the placement, six months of full-time placement, as you would know, uh, is in there as well, so it's a, it's a tricky pathway.

And I'd never say to someone, don't do that, but just be aware that that's what you're, you're in for. And there are other pathways too. So the psychology has always been helpful, even when I worked in HR and the employee relations side of things, the psychology was just so, so useful to have there. And so even, uh, the psychology plus a, a Graduate Diploma Master's in, um, well, I think UWA does one actually, the Master's in Business psychology, I think it is.

[00:32:14] Bronwyn: Yes, it does. Yep, yep.

[00:32:15] Amy: So whilst you don't end up as a registered psych, it's not a registration pathway, I believe, but it's, you know, it still gives you all the skills and knowledge that you need anyway, because you don't to be a registered psych to work in organisational psychology space.

[00:32:33] Bronwyn: And in your opinion, do you find that, like when you think of a Master of Business Psychology, for example, and having worked in org psych field yourself, do you find that that knowledge is valued by employers, or do they only value you if you are a registered psych?

[00:32:47] Amy: Often they don't know the difference. And if I say registered psych, they just think I'm a clinical psych. So org psych has a bit to do by way of PR and trying to get its name out there. And in fact on that conference I mentioned the um oh. We had to say a thing like what people think we do. It was a bit of a, a, a Mentee Meter survey thing. And it was so funny 'cause one person said that, uh, they spend so much more time explaining that they're not an occupational therapist.

[00:33:18] Bronwyn: That's so funny.

[00:33:20] Amy: That's right. So. You know, business psychology, when I first did it, my friend said to me, but you're not even organised, Amy, so how can you be an organisational psychologist?

[00:33:31] Bronwyn: That's so funny!

[00:33:32] Amy: I know!

[00:33:33] Bronwyn: Like their interpretation was that like you were gonna like organise rooms or something?!

[00:33:37] Amy: Exactly like I'm going to schedule or something, the psychology scheduling, scheduling. Uh, so it's a bit misunderstood, yeah.

[00:33:46] Bronwyn: Okay, well it's, it's kind of good for people who wanna do like a Master of Business Business Psychology then, 'cause it's like, okay, still valued by employers 'cause they don't really know the difference, bad for you as an org psych who spent like eight years studying.

[00:33:56] Amy: Well, I really wanted to be an org psych, and I really like the clinical work, which I need the registration for, so that was always what I wanted to do, as well as the org psych. So yeah, that was always gonna be my pathway, and that's why I say to people if it was, what sort of work do you wanna be doing at the end of it? Do you wanna do therapy with people? Do you want to do and, and what sort of clients do you want mental health clients, you wanna work in a place, uh, you know, all of those things. And that should then direct them to the best, best pathway. 'cause even a psych degree. And then, uh, a Master's of Counselling might be a better fit for someone just because, you know, there's more that's offered in Masters of Counselling, as well as, um, they can do it virtually and things like that, that are just the, the, um, clinical or org psych masters are just tricky. They shouldn't be, but they are, and that's a big problem to try and change too. So yeah, for people, it's what sort of work do you wanna be doing? And there might be just easier pathways for yourself if as a Plan B, if that original one doesn't work out.

[00:34:58] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, I wanted to ask you as well, 'cause I do see folks online who are like clinical psychologists and then they're like, oh, I wonder what dipping my toes into the org psych world would be like. And I think, there's two reasons why they consider a psych. First is I think they perceive it that it has good variety in the task, so I wanted to ask you if that was true. And then the second thing, I reckon they perceive that it's less emotional labour in the org psych world. So I wanted to ask you if that was true. So do you feel like a psych work has variety and is less emotionally demanding?

[00:35:30] Amy: Uh, yes and yes, I would say so. Uh, definitely a lot of variety. I can do anything from, and probably some, I'm not a purist, so some that aren't, that are more in the HR end of things anyway. And you can still do a little bit of the, the, the, like, have a bit of that clinical therapy lens even in org psych. I, I do that more say with a coaching client, but, and it might be a psychosocial, uh, injury that they've had, and they're looking at a career change, let's say, and so you're doing some coaching with them, but some of those therapeutic elements come into that, even in an org psych space. And there's psychometrics as well that you might use for recruitment and selection that, you know similar, again.

So I do find they work... it, it's so good 'cause you can go from one-on-one all the way up to that, again, the systemic level and the strategic leadership level, and then everywhere in between. Uh, emotionally, no, not as emotionally draining. Exactly like you say, it's, um, the, you're not carrying the, yeah, it can be heavy. Clinical work can which I find myself immensely satisfying, and I don't get that same level of satisfaction in org psych. But, um, but then you get a day where you're just writing reports or something like that, or you are, you know, off to chat with the business in Perth about some cultural change stuff. So, you know, I find the balance very good.

I think it's a great thing to consider if Clin Psychs want to go into Org Psych, uh, yeah, so many of the principles are the same. Uh, it is interesting when org psychs want to go into private practise because in org psych, I think much more solutions focused, much more what can we do about this? Whereas, you know, if clinical practise is much more, what do you want to do about this and how can I support you? Whereas sometimes, yeah, again, when you're talking to a manager or say a senior leader who goes, right, well, I'm going to put everyone through resilience training and that's gonna fix our problems, and you really can't go, yeah, cool, do that. You have to kind of go, well, let's do some assessments first, and let's see if resilience is a thing and you know, and then devise interventions that might support you there. Because often you find what they think and what is actually happening are two different things. It's not resilience, actually you've, um, you've got a really toxic culture and that's the problem actually. So resilience training is going to make that worse. So, you know, so there's a bit of that, whereas, yeah, I think, you know, one-on-one with clients that sort of looks a bit different.

Also for people going from say, clinical to a psych... yeah, with a psych having that real business lens as well. It can be a little hard to get your head around, but you are not the company, let's say it's Joe Blogs, manufacturing, let's say, they're in the business of manufacturing, uh, thing that they sell, like that's how they make their money. They don't make their money by delivering therapy to their workforce. They don't make their money by giving their workforce massages or, you know, fruit bowls and all those sort of things that are, uh, they're talking about now. So it's that real interventions really have to be appropriate for the business, like sustainable, like financially realistic. And that can also be hard 'cause it might be, yes, let's put everyone through this leadership programme and we'll do all this training... Okay, but is that, are they gonna be able to afford that? You know, that might be prohibitive for that organisation. So you're really trying to meet them where they're at and provide realistic yet hopefully, uh, successful interventions that gonna, that are gonna create a shift somewhere along the line. But yeah, I think that business lens that, 'savvy' kind of needs to be there in org psych, much less so in clinical work.

[00:39:39] Bronwyn: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense as well. It's a, it's a unique skill set that I guess a psychs do possess and that business happiness is, is part of it. And you don't just, that's like not an intuitive skillset, that's something you need to learn.

[00:39:49] Amy: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And again, I, I've seen some do it well and, um, and others just, they've just sort of missed that part. And you go, well, that's a million dollar intervention that you're talking about realistically, 'cause you're talking at scale, a thousand employees over a year, blah, blah, that's, that's a big thing... And we might not be able to do that. So let's try out what we can do with what we've got to create an outcome that at least is getting us to where we wanna go. It might not be the thing where we wanna go, but at least get, get us there, so yeah.

[00:40:24] Bronwyn: Yeah, no. Cool. Amy, I know we've covered a lot today, so we've covered a bit about your journey and your thoughts on org psych, and then we covered the psychosocial hazards as well. What do you most hope that listeners will take away from the conversation today?

[00:40:37] Amy: Well, I really hope that people hear this and start from a place of, I am experiencing psychosocial hazards, they are in my workplace, and, and can I have a think about what they might be, what impact they might have. Uh, like from that place rather than, no, it's not happening to me, until they're in too deep and it is, and they're burning out or even burnt out. So hopefully starting from, it's almost negative, but starting from that place where, okay, things are happening, what are they, and what can I put in place for myself to, you know, protect myself for this nice long career that I want.

Also, I would say as well, just a little bit of advice I suppose, uh, if you don't already, which, um, most of us do, I think, but something like a, a little journal or a little self-reflection about once a month that asks yourself those questions. Am I still, how am I tracking? Am I happy with my work? Am I fulfilled in my life? Do I find things as enjoyable as they were before. Not something like a DASS, but you know, like a little self-reflection because it's, it's more about, say, in six months, looking back and, and seeing the trends, what sort of things are coming up? Not the one offs or one thing, but if it starts to be, um, I'm just not, I haven't painted in months, for example, okay, that might be an indicator that something needs to change before you really suffer an injury. So these are just those pre-signs that there's a hazard there, but you know, we haven't quite got to the injury stage. So I'd say do you can, I think would be good, good to just in on yourself and yeah, make sure that you're travelling okay.

[00:42:28] Bronwyn: No, a really valuable reminder as well because I do think that a lot of psychs, um, we, we sometimes don't, uh, practise what we preach and it is a good reminder that it is valuable to do that. So thanks so much, Amy. So if listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:42:44] Amy: Well, I think my email is the very best, so that's admin@southwesthr.com.au or they can reach out on LinkedIn. I love making new connections so they can just add me and uh, and then we can be friends.

[00:43:00] Bronwyn: Lovely. I'll make sure I pop those links in the show notes. Thanks so much for coming on, Amy. It was really good to learn and hear from you.

[00:43:07] Amy: My pleasure and thanks again for inviting me, Bronwyn.

[00:43:10] Bronwyn: That's okay.

Listeners, if you found this episode helpful, please follow Mental Work and make sure that you shared this episode with somebody who would benefit from it. That's a wrap, thanks for listening, I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.