Self-compassion through career change (with Dr Hayley D Quinn)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about self-compassion through career change. It can feel really scary, shameful, or even like failure when your career path starts pulling you in a different direction.

In this episode, we're going to explore how navigating career change with self-compassion is so important and what it looks like to honor your needs while staying true to your values as a helping professional. Today's guest to help us all out is Dr. Haley D Quinn. Hi Haley.

[00:00:38] Hayley: Hi. Thanks so much for having me on.

[00:00:40] Bronwyn: It's such a pleasure to have you on. Could you please start us off by telling listeners who you are?

[00:00:45] Hayley: So I, I'm Haley. I'm a former clinical psychologist. I'm now a business and mindset coach and also a speaker, I do custom training. And I'm an author as well, I'm just about to publish my debut book, which is really exciting. And I'm also a podcast host, I've got my own podcast called Welcome to self.

[00:01:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, that's amazing. And so you mentioned that you're a former clinical psychologist. I'm aware that you've turned into a anti burnout business coach. What sparked this change? Take us through it.

[00:01:15] Hayley: So I guess it wasn't just one thing. I spent almost two decades as a psychologist and prior to that I'd been a counselor for Kids Helpline and Lifeline as well. And I had been, well, about 10 years ago, I had a really significant burnout. When I was studying psychology, I had come out of a domestic violence relationship and I was a single parent. So there was times during my study where I was working like three jobs and kind of doing all the things, my family are over in the UK so I had quite limited support.

And I thought I was taking good care of myself, but I mean, on reflection, the burnout was gonna come because I was just doing too much. You know, you just can't keep doing things and thinking that you, you're just gonna keep pushing through. And I was really good at keeping on, pushing through.

So, like I say, that was about 10 years ago and I had a significant burnout and I had to leave where I was working. I was working for myself, but within a group practice as a psychologist and really kind of think about, well, what is it I'm gonna be able to do? What do I want to do?

So I started, um, a solo private practice, and during the sort of building of that business, I also was doing more supervision. So I found that really helpful in terms of kind of balancing what I was doing. And then through the supervision, and also inquiries I was getting, people were asking me about how I'd managed to kind of deal with my own burnout and how was I able to sort of run a business whilst also taking care of myself, and I really became passionate about helping people in the psychology profession, kind of, set up ways of working that also honored their own wellbeing.

And then of course, we had the pandemic and I'd started really focusing on self-care for therapists. That's when I started my own podcast. I also had a weekly group that I used to run on Zoom, um, where people would just come and we'd meet and sort of talk about the challenges of being a psychologist, but also being a human being that was navigating the pandemic whilst helping our clients navigate being in the pandemic. So it really started to evolve from there.

And over time I just realized how excited I felt in the kind of coaching space and with the business side of things. Prior to being a psychologist, I'd have varied roles in different businesses, so it just naturally kind of evolved that my clinical load became a lot smaller. I was doing supervision and training, but also coaching, and then, I just, it just wasn't sitting with me that I wanted to try and navigate both of those areas. So I made the decision last November to give up my registration, which was obviously a, a big decision. It taken me a lot to get there as a single mom, and I'd been working in the profession for a long time, but it, it really felt like the right thing to do.

[00:04:19] Bronwyn: Yeah, I have several questions around this. I guess question number one is on giving up your registration last year... when I think of being a psychologist, I feel like it's taken on a part of my identity, and I wondered if that, if that factors into you, like do you feel like your identity has changed or shifted?

[00:04:41] Hayley: Yeah, so I'll, I'll firstly say that I was aware that that could be a thing for me. So I did a lot of work prior to letting go of my registration... this wasn't something I decided overnight. And I, I guess also going through my burnout experience, really taught me that we can get very attached to certain parts of our identity and they can cha- they can change overnight. So I'd done a lot of work, um, like even in my honors year, I'd done some stuff around shifting of identity after people have had brain injury. So I was really aware about that identity piece. So I'd done a lot of work in, I guess, detaching myself from this label of psychologist.

I've always known that I've wanted to do work that is meaningful and helping people, and I continue to do work that's meaningful and helps people, but I had sort of stepped away from needing to be called a psychologist. So when I did, I, I'd kind of already done that work. So it was, it was a bit weird at first, but not as much if I hadn't done the, the, work.

[00:05:47] Bronwyn: The way you're describing it really makes a lot of sense. It's like you've still got that grounding in helping people, you're just doing it in a way that still resonates with you, and I guess a way that doesn't require the psychologist registration.

[00:05:58] Hayley: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:01] Bronwyn: I'm wondering if you had any fear or doubts though, because a lot of listeners, and we have a lot of early career listeners, they are facing their own burnout experiences and they're thinking, can I actually stay in this profession? But I think they're gripped by a fear and a bit of loss aversion. They're like, I've studied so hard for this and I, I'm thinking of exiting... I'm wondering if you had any fears or doubts?

[00:06:20] Hayley: Oh gosh, absolutely! Absolutely. I did. I, I had times where I was like, am I just like, what am I doing? I spent so long as a single parent, is this the, just the craziest decision I'm ever gonna make? Um, but I also knew really strongly that it was the right time for me to do that.

And of course there, there was some really challenging stuff around saying I had long-term clients. I worked a lot with complex trauma, so I had some- even though I only had a few clients left, when I finally left the profession, that that stuff was tough. So I sought supervision. I, I've always been a therapist who's had my own therapy, so I talked about it in therapy. I, I talked about it in supervision.

Um, but yeah, and I, and I think to those early career psychologists... One people burning out just breaks my heart because I just know how damaging it is, and that's why I'm so passionate about burnout prevention. I think it's important to realize that there are ways of being a psychologist that honor your wellbeing. I work still with, with allied health professionals and psychologists who are either solo practitioners or who have group practices around this kind of, how, how are we, 'well', as psychologists.

But for some people it might not be a good fit. And I, I was talking to somebody the other day actually, who's looking at studying psychology, and they're not sure about whether that's what they want to do, and I said to them, there's no way that's ever wasted. I mean, this is about understanding human beings and behavior. No matter what you go into, you need, you know, you're gonna benefit from understanding human beings and behavior.

So I think if people are at that kind of crossroads of, you know, I'm feeling like I'm burning out, I dunno if this is for me... my questions would be, is there a way you can do this differently? If you're really passionate about staying in psychology, is this a way- is there a way you can do this differently that does honor who you are, how you need to work, and how you can take care of yourself? Or what is it you might like to do, and you can walk away from a profession and it not be wasted. Like I don't see any of my career as a psychologist wasted at all. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to have been able to study it and then to have the privilege of being a psychologist for such a long time as well.

[00:08:45] Bronwyn: Again, it's a really lovely framing and I, I know that you are passionate about self-compassion, and when I think of self-compassion, I always go to the Kristen Neff definition, which has the mindfulness, common humanity, and self kindness. I'm wondering for you, what role self-compassion played in navigating this, this transition?

[00:09:02] Hayley: Yeah, so, so I did a lot of training in compassion focused therapy, which is Paul Gilbert's framework of, um, compassion, and we always look at the three flows of compassion. So compassion to others, which so many psychologists are so good at, right?

[00:09:15] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:09:15] Hayley: Self-compassion, and compassion from others. And for me, talking about self-compassion and thinking about self-compassion is great, but we need to remember there's three flows, because that receiving compassion from others can be really helpful, particularly if people are in this space of feeling burnt out and needing support.

[00:09:36] Bronwyn: They can have a lot of shame in that. So receiving that compassion from other people can just help alleviate that shame so much.

[00:09:43] Hayley: Absolutely. But you know, my training in compassion focused therapy profoundly changed me professionally and personally and, and whenever you have people hear me speak, they'll hear me say this stuff. So absolutely it played a part. Compassion plays a part in my daily life.

And there was a lot of times, I mean, these were big decisions... even from, um, you know, a practical business point of view, I walk, I walked away from the majority of my income because my supervision caseload was high, I had clinical clients, I had supervision, and I had some coaching clients, but I hadn't been focusing so much on my coaching because my psychology business was thriving.

So when I decided to leave and focus on my coaching and, and the other things that I do, I was walking away from the majority of my income, which I'd had to do when I was burnt out. So there was stuff that would trigger memories of like, what if I don't have enough money and I'm gonna have to be dependent on my, my husband... we also have a building company, so I was fortunate that I'm in a privileged position. But I've been in a relationship in the past where I was financially dependent and it wasn't a healthy relationship, so there was lots of stuff for me where I had to bring compassion to myself.

[00:11:07] Bronwyn: You totally would have, and I'm just thinking like, you sound like a rather self-actualized person. I know you've done a lot of work, but you, you sound very put together. Um, but I imagine if you did have a proneness to have a self-critical voice, that little critical voice could be like, Hayley, what are you doing? You have like a successful business here and you're gonna walk away from it.

[00:11:26] Hayley: Absolutely, and trust me, I might sound like I'm put together now, but that is not my history... I had an extremely toxic relationship with myself. I talk about this in my, in my book actually. Um, and absolutely, and, and that's not to say myself, critic didn't show up. It's just I, my default now when that happens is to have a very compassionate response to myself.

[00:11:51] Bronwyn: It is amazing.

[00:11:52] Hayley: It- it takes practice and I don't get it right all the time 'cause I'm as human as the next person, but with practice we really can build this more compassionate default relationship. But absolutely yourself, critics gonna have a field day when you start to try and do something new or make wild decisions like, oh, I've worked really hard to be a psychologist, I think I'll just walk away.

[00:12:15] Bronwyn: Yeah. Critics gotta, like you say, have a field day. Just be active all the time.

[00:12:20] Hayley: Absolutely. And also this thing around, you know, what will people think, what will my colleagues think? All that stuff shows up for us, right?

[00:12:30] Bronwyn: Yeah. How did you manage that one, just outta curiosity? Like, is that, was that a big, uh, maybe you think that you needed to work through, like what will other people think?

[00:12:40] Hayley: Look, I think for me, I, I'm 55, so I think some of this comes with age.

[00:12:45] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:12:46] Hayley: As well as practicing really cultivating a compassionate relationship. But this is my life and I have to live it, and I have to be okay with my choices. And, in the nicest possible way, other people's opinions of how I live my life really can't be what drive my decision, like they just can't.

Um, I did that. I, I lived my life, I, I talk about having lived my life as a chameleon, you know, trying to fit with what people needed me to be or what I thought I should be. Um, I'm also a late identified autistic woman with ADHD, so I've masked for a lot of my life... And I just know the consequences of that, and I'm, I'm not willing to do it anymore. So I'm sure there's people out there thought I lost the plot, but you know, that they can think what they like and that's fine.

[00:13:38] Bronwyn: Well, it's a deeply compassionate stance towards yourself as well, and being like, look, I support myself so much that I'm not going to keep on harming myself through camouflage.

[00:13:47] Hayley: Absolutely, because that's exactly what it is, you know, we we're harming,

[00:13:52] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. That's really awesome to hear. So I'm wondering, like you're in this position now where you're an anti burnout coach... what does your day to day work look like now?

[00:14:03] Hayley: Gosh, quite, quite varied actually, depending on what I'm doing. So I, I do one-on-one coaching work with clients. I run a group... I don't run that all the time. I kind of tune into where I'm at at the moment. I'm getting the book ready for publication, so I, I decided not to run the group. So sometimes I might be, you know, planning some information for my group or running a group, or I'll be seeing one-on-one coaching clients. Um, I write for a magazine, I'm writing my books, so my day might involve some writing. Um, I might be putting together some marketing, or attending a, a zoom call where I'm networking or going to a conference or.... yeah. Taking a walk along the beach, sitting and watching Netflix.

[00:14:48] Bronwyn: All sounds good.

[00:14:49] Hayley: It's um, I start my day quite slow because I like that and I take rest and breaks between, um, so yeah, the days are quite varied. And you know, I said before, I, I always want my work to be, um, meaningful to me, but also helpful to, to the world, I guess, people in the world. And being able to do this, I very much design things so that I am doing the work I enjoy so I can bring my best self to the people I'm working with. Um, I don't want to show up to something where I'm feeling disinterested or resentful, um, like I say, I don't put too much into my day because I don't wanna be tired and then be showing up to work with somebody and then I'm kinda like, oh, you know, when's this gonna be over?

So yeah, I just kind of come back to what is it that feels important to me... being of service, but not only being of service to everybody else all the time, but also being of service to myself. So it really is kind of finding, what is it that's gonna work for me, keep me interested, be helpful, have variety, 'cause I know that I need that as well.

And then I'm, I'm really in this place as well where I'm kind of listening to the people that I'm working with and the people that are, I'm talking to, and sort of paying attention to what is it that people need? And I just, you know, there's so many people that are burning out and unfortunately in a profession like psychology, it's really quite prevalent and we've almost normalized it, you know that it's gonna happen... it is part of the process... and it's, it's just not how it needs to be and we, we need to change that.

So a lot of, a lot of the stuff, I guess for me is driven by shifting some of these really unhelpful narratives that we are working within and living within, and hopefully making a difference.

[00:16:52] Bronwyn: Uh, totally, and I'm completely on board with that. I would love it for burnout to not be a rite of passage when we are psychologists, and I don't think it should be, and it sounds like we're aligned in that. I was wondering, I had a question as you were talking, did you ever consider, like, doing some coaching work but as a psychologist, like making that work around that, rather than stepping outside and then being a coach. I guess, what do you see as the differences and uh, distinctions and did you consider like, oh, maybe I could just do this as a psychologist?

[00:17:23] Hayley: Yeah, so I did both, I did do both. Um, I'd been coaching for quite a number of years, um, but I was not promoting myself particularly as a business coach. I was a psychologist and people found me like people would just like, oh, you know, I've been given your name and I really want to kind of run my business in a way that I don't burn out. And we'd sort of have a conversation around whether that was supervision or whether it was more coaching related.

So I did do both, but for me, there was a number of factors with that. There is... the psychology profession is one that is about promoting wellbeing for people. But unfortunately I think we have a profession that has people in their threat system a lot of the time, which I think is really quite sad.

You know, we've got new changes coming through. There's competencies around self-care, which is great. I mean, I've been doing therapist self-care work for like five years. To see the new competency come through was really exciting, but I also had some concerns that, is this going to be another thing that people feel like, oh my gosh, now I'm not even gonna be competent in self care and somehow AHPRA is gonna come after me for not looking after myself properly, so there's these challenges there.

So I guess working within the system of AHPRA had lost its appeal for me. Um, I, I have my identification as autistic ADHD coming up to three years ago, and the more I've got to know myself and my neurodivergent identity, I realize I really like to do things the way I like to do them, and I don't really like patriarchal systems telling me what I should do. So I, it kind of was, yeah, I guess it had, um, run its course for me in terms of being registered.

I know I'm professional and ethical, I'm not here to harm anybody, and so I felt comfortable stepping away into an unregulated industry, 'cause let's be honest, coaching is completely unregulated and that can be scary. Um,

[00:19:34] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:19:34] Hayley: I felt confident in myself that I can do that and be professional and ethical. So, yeah, I was doing both, but because they do, they did feel quite different for me and I was just feeling so excited and passionate about what I was building in the coaching space, I felt like I had my feet in two camps and I, I was gonna get to the point where I wouldn't be able to keep offering good service to both, so I made the choice to, to leave.

[00:20:04] Bronwyn: That makes sense. What has been a surprising lesson since leaving your registration as a psychologist? Good or hard?

[00:20:13] Hayley: A surprising lesson. Gosh, that's a really good question. One, and it's probably not surprising, but, but it has been hard, I had some, like I said, some long-term clients I worked with for many years, and, um, they're in your heart. You know, we where, where whatever the profession says is correct or not, we're human beings, and if you build a relationship with somebody that perhaps you're seeing more often than you'd even see your friends, they're, they're on your heart. So I have moments where, those people come to mind and I can't just reach out and say, Hey, how you going? Like you, and that can be painful. I'll be honest, that can be really painful.

[00:20:54] Bronwyn: It's really interesting that you say that actually, because I've just had a six month break from clinical work and I'm starting clinical work back up again in a few weeks, and I was reflecting on like, yeah, what is, what has been the hardest thing about having a break from clinical work and it, it was exactly as you said. It was thinking about my clients, like long-term clients I'd had for many years, and thinking like, I hope they're doing well, I hope they're okay. I wonder what's happening for them. And yeah, not being able to reach out to them, but just sending them good vibes like in the universe.

[00:21:22] Hayley: Exactly, exactly! I think the other thing that has been, uh, interesting for me, because I was doing that for a long time as well, and I, I was very experienced in compassion focused therapy, I'd trained all the psychologists in compassion focused therapy. Um, I was quite active in some of the, the groups and, I was quite well known as a psychologist, and I got lots of word of mouth referrals... And then you stop being a psychologist and you move into this wild, wild west, as I like to call it, of coaching, and all of a sudden it's like, and it's a bit of an e- I'll be honest, it's a bit of an ego nudge because it's like, oh, oh, right, so people don't actually know who...

[00:22:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so true. Did that take a hit to like your self-esteem or was it just more like noticing that?

[00:22:11] Hayley: Well, it was, it was a little bit of a, you know, my ego was a bit like, oh, okay. Um, but then it's, it's interesting because you say, okay, well I've done that. I built that reputation, and I can do that again. So for me, it's looking at like, okay, I've gotta rebuild a business and get more known and start networking, and to be honest, as an autistic woman, networking ain't my jam. It's not my most favorite thing in the world. Although I've met some really, really beautiful people and I've been going to some events that are really fun.

So you kind of look and think, well, if I built a business before and I, I networked well and I made good connections and people got to know who I am and what I do, then I can do that again, and I certain-, and that's certainly happening. So, but initially it was like, oh my gosh,

[00:23:00] Bronwyn: Yeah, it is a bit of a challenge. And I guess on that, I was just wondering, do you feel like you've lost a sense of community? Because like you said, you're out in the wild, wild west now. It's like you might not have known as many people as you did being a psychologist. Was the change in community or loss a factor for you?

[00:23:16] Hayley: In some regards, yes, because there's people that I've been in connection with through like certain groups that I'm no longer in. But I'm also really fortunate that I've kind of built networks and I'm still in touch with a lot of psychologists. You know, we've got like different groups or we might do Zoom networking or I might body double with an old colleague of mine and friend. Um, so yes, to a degree, but I think when you've built those relationships over a long time, you kind of take them with you.

[00:23:52] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. So, I mean, we've been talking about self-compassion through career change and sustainability as well, and I was wondering what this looks like for you. I know it's gonna look different for everyone, so it's like you can't give us, like, I do yoga at eight and then sip of tea at nine and then we're all gonna follow that. But I'm just curious like what it, what does it look like for you, because you've worked really hard on it.

[00:24:14] Hayley: Yeah, yeah. So I would definitely not do a prescription for anyone because I really, really believe that it's about knowing yourself and understanding what you need and tuning in. So for me, it literally starts at the beginning of the day where I, I greet myself and I check in and I'm like, Hey, darling, how you going? What, what, what's going on today? What, what do I need? Like, really thinking about what, how busy is the day? What am I gonna need if I'm not feeling perhaps as resilient or resourced? You know, if we don't sleep well at night, we wake up, don't feel so great for the day, right. I woke up this morning feeling fabulous and, um, it's been wonderful, I put on very colorful clothes and I've just been, uh, pairing along actually, which has been great.

But, you know, maybe tonight if I didn't sleep so well, I might wake up tomorrow or just wake up feeling a bit like, ugh, and I just sort of check in with, well, what is it that I need today that's gonna help me? Um, I do a slower start in the day. I used to start my day earlier, but now I start it as late as possible. Um, I do like my cups of tea. And really taking breaks, whether that is a small break to stretch at my desk, or whether it's actually really stepping away and taking some time to sit down and have a cup of tea or go out for a walk or something. Those things are really important. But also that regular checking in during the day. It's not a just like, start off your day, what's it gonna look like? But it's that checking in, um, really paying attention to how I'm feeling. And again, as a neurodivergent woman that's taken practice because I, I wasn't always so aware of how I was.

And then really just making sure that I don't fill my diary too full, that I'm not, um, taking on too much. I've got to a place where I'm really good at only saying yes when I want to say yes, which I think benefits everybody. You don't end up feeling resentful. People can trust that it's a yes from you, you're not just being polite. Um, but I know people can struggle with that as well. So it, it's lots of little things and just making sure that I am connecting. I can kind of herm it away a little bit. I do like to be under a blanket on my couch. Um, so making sure that I'm staying connected with other people as well.

[00:26:38] Bronwyn: As a, as a neurodivergent woman, I'm neurodivergent as well, and I know we have a lot of listeners who are neurodivergent too. And I think one of the things that's just a really common thought pattern across neurodivergence is like our needs are are difficult and we are being difficult, and if we ask for our needs to be met, they're asking for too much.

So like, I'm thinking that for an example, like let's say somebody needs regular rest throughout the day, like even just two minutes of downtime where they close their eyes 'cause the lights are too bright... neurodivergence, we can just feel like that's asking too much. And I just thought, like I, I, I thought it'd be interesting to hear from you, like what do you do with that little voice?

[00:27:15] Hayley: Well, first of all, notice it, notice that it's showing up and, and that's one of those prime times. So, you know, if you can cultivate, um, a compassionate relationship with yourself and, and bring that compassion to yourself, I mean, would would we turn around to somebody else and say, I can't believe you want to close your eyes for two minutes, 'cause the light's too-

[00:27:33] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, it sounds No, of course not. Yeah. Yeah. What an awful person, you said no one ever. You're so greedy. Yeah.

[00:27:42] Hayley: It's like, I just think, oh, I mean, I just want to, I, I wanna swear when you say that, when you were like, people feel like, it's like, screw that. Like, no, you deserve, that's fundamental, basic needs to take care of yourself. We, we really have these toxic narratives around how we should be and that your, your worth is tied to productivity and it's, it's absolute bs. Like we, we need to take care of ourselves.

And some people may need less rest. Some people tell themselves they need less rest and then don't rest at all, and I, I'll be saying, well, maybe just check in if that's true, because we do all need rest. I mean, you walk into a factory that's full of machines, they turn the machines off to for maintenance. Even machines don't keep running.

[00:28:35] Bronwyn: Yes. My favorite one on that is like, 'cause I did my PhD on insomnia. So like I understand that there are variations in how much sleep people need, but literally people who need less than five hours of sleep or less than like 0.8 of the population, but I meet so many people who are like, I can survive on four hours of sleep. `And I'm like, that might be true, but it's only true for a very small amount of people in the population. So maybe just check in.

[00:29:00] Hayley: Exactly, because I guess, you know, as human beings, we tell ourselves what we need to tell ourselves to survive the situations we're in, if you're in a situation, I mean, I'm, I'm certainly not talking to parents of young kids here to say, if you're in a situation where you can't get sleep, you should just leave! Like, I get that, that's the time I was a single mom. And I, I, I get that sleep is, uh, sometimes you don't have enough.

But if you are somebody who's in a situation that perhaps is saying, well, I, I have to book in like, oh, you know, seven, eight clients a day. You're in a practice where they're telling you that you have to see every type of client, even if it's not in your wheelhouse, which we know we're not supposed to be doing it when we think about, you know, code of ethics and all that. If somebody's telling you, you have to see back to back clients or so many clients and it's too much, maybe that's about you reflecting on whether that is actually the right workplace for you, rather than trying to fit yourself into a system that's harming.

[00:30:01] Bronwyn: Hmm, yeah, definitely. Hayley, I've loved hearing everything you've had to say so far, and I wanted to ask you about your book from a few different angles. So I think the first angle I wanted to ask you about was. Early career psychs, we can feel like we can't speak up and we can't do these innovative things like release books. Like we don't know enough. And I'm just wondering what led to you wanting to write a book and feeling confident enough to do that?

[00:30:25] Hayley: Okay, so I wanted it, like many authors, I've wanted to write a book. I started writing a book when I was in high school, but never finished it.

[00:30:31] Bronwyn: Oh, wow.

[00:30:32] Hayley: Um, lots of things never finished. I've got a PhD I didn't know. Um, I had started writing a book for therapists a few years ago, and it just wasn't a fit. And then early this year, I decided I was gonna write a book for business owners and again, I was writing it, it was kind of going okay, but then this title just kept coming to me from self neglect, self-compassion, and it wouldn't leave me alone, um, which might sound a bit weird, but I feel like this book kind of picked me because I sat down and wrote the book in 16 sittings. The edit, the editing process has been back and forth now, but I literally had the book written.

When you said people think, oh, you know, I shouldn't, what do I know? I don't know enough and all that... I'm 55, I've had lots of different work experience, I was a psychologist for almost two decades, and I've had plenty of times during this book going, who am I to write this book? It's probably rubbish! Um, it's not rubbish by the way. It's actually...

[00:31:39] Bronwyn: I'm sure-!

[00:31:39] Hayley: I have days where I read it and go, oh my gosh, this is so good. And other days I'm like, this is absolutely rubbish. What are you doing? Um, and I think the confidence comes from just taking the steps, taking the step. I messaged my, my husband, I, I'm in the process of, um, contacting some people to see if they'll read an advanced copy, and it's making it feel very real. And I was like, oh my gosh, I feel sick, I feel sick. And then I was like, it's alright. It's okay. I've got this, I can do this. What's the worst? They don't wanna read an advance copy and that's fine.

So I think it's about just keeping on taking the steps. And I messaged my husband and just said, this is wild, like I can't believe this is happening, it's wild. And so it's reaching out and connecting to somebody who I know is gonna give me a caring response as well. Um, I'm fortunate that I've got some really beautiful people in my life who are really encouraging.

But I think confidence comes from doing the thing. And you know, I, I work with a lot of people who will sort of say, oh, I dunno if it's good enough, or, I dunno if I'm providing enough. And I'll often remind them, you are coming from a place of having, you know, been through your university degree or your however long your career has been in what you're doing, and the people that are coming to you and asking the question are at a beginner level. So you absolutely are in a position to be able to share your knowledge. So anybody that's got to the point where their early career as a psychologist... have learned so much... so much!

[00:33:19] Bronwyn: Mm. Yeah, it's really reassuring to hear. And can I ask you what the book is about?

[00:33:25] Hayley: So it literally is about moving from self neglect to self-compassion. It's called From Self Neglect to Self-compassion, A Compassionate Guide To Creating A Thriving Life. So it's for women non-binary and gender diverse people. And it, it's a very reflective book, so I share some of my own story and experiences, but there's also lots of reflective questions. Um, so you can spend time getting to know yourself. There's, um, a lot of it is based in the framework of CFT because that's been so powerful for me and also my lived experience as well of mental health burnout, recovery from that and, and living, uh, values aligned and meaningful life. So that's what I want for everybody. It's um, I could never have imagined that my life would be what it is now. I, I wanna share what I know so I can help other people.

[00:34:19] Bronwyn: That's awesome. What's your favorite part of the book?

[00:34:21] Hayley: Oh my gosh, that's such a good question.

[00:34:25] Bronwyn: All of it?

[00:34:26] Hayley: Yeah. I think it changes on different days. Um, I've not really sat down and reflected on that, which is something I will do. I have been keeping little reflections along the way, mainly the times that I start crying... ...-in my notes.

I think the favorite part for me is I feel like I'm in conversation. I hope that feels like that for the reader because I feel like I'm kind of sitting with somebody and talking to them about something and why it's important, and then getting them to kind of look at how that fits for them and what that might look like for them.

[00:35:20] Bronwyn: It sounds like a very... a book that really holds you and, and keeps you safe and steady during while reading it.

[00:35:26] Hayley: I really hope that is true. I do believe that is true.

[00:35:30] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, Hayley, it's been a real pleasure to speak with you. Is there anything I haven't asked you about self-compassion through career change that you wanted to share as listeners?

[00:35:43] Hayley: No, I think you've asked some lovely questions. I think the main thing for me is, you know, if you can really understand yourself and get to know yourself and be really honest with yourself about what's working and not working within your, you know, professional life and your personal life, and bring that compassion to yourself, particularly as psychologists, we offer that out continually, day after day, week after week, month after month, yeah? And it's really about offering that to yourself as well.

[00:36:15] Bronwyn: I mean, yeah, it comes back to that self neglect. It's like we can't neglect ourselves and keep on pouring out to other people.

[00:36:20] Hayley: No. And yet it happens so frequently. I mean, I did it, you know, I'm not, I'm not coming from a place of, I've never done that. I'm, I've always been compassionate, not, not at all. Um, so I think, yeah, just really pay attention to yourself.

[00:36:36] Bronwyn: 100%. And Hayley, if people wanna find out about you or get in touch, where can they find you? And when will your book come out and how can they get that?

[00:36:44] Hayley: Okay. So. I've got my website, drhayleydquinn.com. I'm on socials, all the different socials under Dr. Hayley D Quinn. I have my podcast, Welcome to Self... the early the early seasons, I think se up to season, end of season two or maybe even season three was the original Caring for the Human in the Therapist Chair. It's now changed and it's just got welcome self, but those episodes are all there, so that would be a really helpful one for the psychologists, but also the, anybody who's in business that other episodes are are helpful as well.

I have currently got a list where people can get on the mailing, I share updates and all that sort of stuff, so I'll be keeping people advised. I think presales, we've, we've got planned for November presales, so that's not far.

[00:37:39] Bronwyn: Wow. That's, yeah. That's soon, exciting! Yeah, that's awesome! Well, I'll make sure all of those links are in the show notes. And thank you so much again for coming on, Haley, it's been a real delight to speak with you. I know that like your journey hasn't been easy by any stretch, and it sounds like you've done an incredible amount of work to be where you are now. Um, and yeah, it's just really reassuring and lovely to see and well done.

[00:38:06] Hayley: Thank you so much, and I'm always happy for people to jump into the DMs or send me an email.

[00:38:11] Bronwyn: Lovely. Well, listeners, if this episode resonated with you, do support the podcast and share it with a friend or a colleague who may benefit from it too. That's a wrap, thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good run and catch you next time. Bye.