Working in the family court system (with Dr Kate Jackowski)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, Mental Workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about working with clients who are engaged in the family court and writing court reports from the perspective of a forensic psychologist.

[00:00:21] I reckon that listeners might be a bit frightened by the prospect of working with clients who are engaged in the family court. I know I've seen a lot of stress and anxiety around this subject, so I thought it would be great to ask a forensic psychologist exactly what is involved in family court proceedings, what their role is, and what family court assessments involve.

[00:00:40] I hope by the end of the episode that your anxiety will go down at least a few notches and that you'll feel more comfortable and confident working in this area. To help us out here today is a wonderful guest. Her name is Dr. Kate Jackowski. Hi Kate.

[00:00:55] Kate: Hey, how you going?

[00:00:56] Bronwyn: So well, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Kate, could you please tell listeners who you are and what your nons psychology passion is?

[00:01:04] Kate: Sure. So I am a forensic psychologist by trade. Um, I have done a lot of work in of the legal system, um, and specifically in relation to family law. Um, and my, I've got two passions. Um, one of those is in relation to fast cars. Um, I love cars and all things to do with fast cars, and I also love travel.

[00:01:23] Bronwyn: Amazing. So have you been to the Summer Nats?

[00:01:26] Kate: No.

[00:01:27] Bronwyn: Do you know what it is?

[00:01:29] Kate: I do.

[00:01:29] Bronwyn: Okay. Have you ever wanted to go?

[00:01:31] Kate: Yes,

[00:01:33] Bronwyn: But I haven't got there. The only

[00:01:35] Kate: But haven't got there quite-

[00:01:36] Bronwyn: The only reason I know about it's because they used to live in Canberra and I don't know anything about cars, but the Summer Nats is a big car show that happens in Canberra, and you can hear cars everywhere and you see a parade of what looked like fast cars going down the main streets. And I'm like, if I loved cars, this would be amazing.

[00:01:53] Kate: I do a bit of work in Canberra, so maybe I'll have to, uh, coordinate.

[00:01:56] Bronwyn: That would be amazing. It, it looks very popular and just, uh, like a car lover's dream.

[00:02:02] Kate: Love it.

[00:02:02] Bronwyn: Okay. So thank you so much, Kate, for coming on, and I think we'll just start off with, could you just provide us with an overview of your role as a forensic psych who works in the family court system and writes court reports? Like what do you do?

[00:02:17] Kate: Yeah, sure. It's, um, first of all, it's not like CSI, I know that everyone freaks out that it's like forensic psych means on the tv you're doing all these cool, um, investigations.

[00:02:27] Bronwyn: Blood splatter.

[00:02:28] Kate: -of it is-

[00:02:29] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:02:30] Kate: a lot of it is. Reports. Um, and so a lot of my work is report writing. Um, so it's very assessment focused, um, and in my particular role, so there's a number of ways that people can, I guess, be engaged within the family law system, um, as a psychologist, as a forensic psychologist or practitioner. Um, and that can involve both being a therapeutic client interaction. Um, but then more so in the assessment space.

[00:02:55] And so I am based in the assessment space and my day-to-day would involve, uh, assessing families, so moms and dads and children when they're separated. Um, and really checking in and working out what the issues in dispute might be when they're in family court, uh, and trying to work out a way forward and providing an assessment that's really about prioritizing the needs of the children. And I say to parents all the time, it's providing an independent, psychological, uh, social science perspective to the work that perhaps can give them a different perspective, um, from when they're so subjective and involved and emotion laden.

[00:03:31] Bronwyn: Okay, so help me understand the process a bit more because I don't, I don't know anything about this area. Do separated families or people who are in the process of separating, do they engage you or does the court tell them you need an assessment.

[00:03:48] Kate: Great question. Predominantly it's through the court so we can work with families and they can come and see us for an assessment when they're not in family law proceedings. So prior to, uh, initiating or filing an application in the court. Um, and to be honest, that's the best time to, to get there. That's fantastic if they can do that.

[00:04:04] Uh, but often when they can't come to an agreement on, for example, the arrangements of the children, so the time that they spend with each parent, um, and where they live, then they might file court proceedings. Uh, and then it will be the judge who ultimately provides an order or it's a judicial registrar, uh, who provides an order for us to do an assessment.

[00:04:22] However often that's... add another complicating factor, often that's by agreement. So for example, both family members, so the parties, their adults, uh, the parents will decide that they want this assessment to take place as well. So it'll be an order by consent.

[00:04:37] Bronwyn: Okay. And could you walk us through the process of conducting an assessment with people who are looking to separate. Do you interview one parent, the other parent, kids? If there are multiple kids, do you interview them separately together? What happens there?

[00:04:54] Kate: Yeah. Uh, really interesting, it, for me, it depends on the actual assessment and the individual family. So I very much tailor my assessments according to each individual family. So typically there might be two parents, um, and I would interview them separately. And get a sense of where they're coming from, what the issues might be, what's been working well, why they think, for example, they may have, um, not been able to resolve this and, and do require support through the court.

[00:05:18] Uh, more importantly, getting a sense from them about the children. Uh, so talking about their kids, what they're like, what their temperaments are like, if they've got any special needs, for example, how they're traveling at school, their social circles, all that kind of stuff.

[00:05:32] Um, and obviously as well, one of the biggest parts of that role is around risk and looking at risk assessment. Um, and so looking at what are the concerns that each parent's raised, it might be of whether it's drug and alcohol, it could be mental health related concerns. Um, there can be a whole gamut of, of reasons that someone might have some concerns. Um, I'll also speak to the children individually, uh, where I can, obviously not everyone will separate from their parents with ease, so we've gotta navigate that or, or separate from their sibling group.

[00:06:01] Uh, we've also gotta navigate the age of the kids as well. Uh, I typically won't interview children. Um, I guess there's a difference too, in terms of formally interviewing. So I'm very much about interacting with kids, so I'll say that my interview is a form of interaction, so we might play a game together, um, while we're talking and sort of that, that, I guess the art of distraction in terms of getting rapport and, and being able to, uh, get some information from kids.

[00:06:26] It's also about not putting them on the spot in terms of asking them about what they want. Um, obviously if kids have something they wanna offer me in terms of an opinion, uh, for sure, I'll, I'll take that into consideration. But equally, they're also kids, so it's about kind of just exploring what their experience of each home has been like.

[00:06:44] Um, and more importantly, to the transition between the houses is really important. Uh, so then from there, uh, I'll also do an observation with each parent. Uh, typically, again, this will depend on each family, but I'll, um, do an observation with the parents in the room with their children and having a play. Sometimes they'll involve me in that, sometimes we won't. It just depends on, again, the individual family. Um, and then from there I'll write my report.

[00:07:08] Bronwyn: This sounds really tricky because I think that parents, correct me if I'm wrong, but I reckon that parents involved in this space would wanna present themselves very well to you. So there'd be reason to make sure that they're very polite. Not saying that they're not polite, but just, you know, kind of put their best foot forward in a way. Um, how do you, how do you work out what's real and what's not?

[00:07:38] Kate: Really interesting question. Of course, we get people with positive impression management. We're, we're expecting that that is kind of the baseline expectation when they walk through the door. Um, I also get parents who are quite emotional, which is absolutely understandable. And I say to them, this is, um, you know, this is one of the, the, I guess, the scariest or the most emotional things that you'll do in your life and most difficult because it involves your children and your family and emotions and, uh, yeah, and sometimes we're seeing people, um, very soon after separation as well. And that's, you know, things, they're still grieving. Uh, it's a grief and loss process. Um, and so I think that we need to be mindful of that, and it's something that we take into consideration in terms of the way that they're presenting.

[00:08:20] But equally it's also about the information that we are gathering. So it's not just about how someone's presenting, but sometimes the information we are gathering from both what they're saying, but what, what the other side is saying. Uh, and also as well their filed material. So we read all of the filed material with the courts, assuming that the um, court order has allowed for that, and there might be some subpoenaed material. So some information from organizations that the parents might be working with or the children.

[00:08:46] Um, and then there also is the opportunity to get permission to speak to other external service providers as well. So for example, if they're involved with a psychologist or if it might be a medical issue, I've had multiple conversations with pediatricians over the years, uh, schools. I, uh, it's interesting... I'm reticent to involve schools unless I have to.

[00:09:07] Um, well, I see that as very much a neutral space for kids to just be, and we don't really need to involve, and that we don't really need to involve the family with the school network where we don't have to, uh, just in terms of it can provide a wealth of information, but when you think about it, these families have to have an ongoing relationship with this school. And if they provide me with information that perhaps supports one parent versus the other, that can then become quite problematic in terms of those future ongoing relationships.

[00:09:37] Bronwyn: And then that could disrupt the child and the child's having a great time at school, but you've got this kind of awkward relationship between the staff at the school and the parent, and really that shouldn't infringe on the child's like enjoyment of the school.

[00:09:48] Kate: Exactly right, and that really comes back to that notion of best interest of the child, which is all about what we do in the legislation and why we do these assessments.

[00:09:55] Bronwyn: Yeah. One thing that, I might be going into this too deep, but sometimes I get like stuck on like a train of thought and I'm like, but what if, but what if? Okay, so, so here's my what if question. One thing that I've heard is that, and this is probably not as common, this probably comes back to your starting thing of like, you know, it's not CSI, but what I've heard is that there might be one parent who perhaps has some narcissistic qualities and maybe they're very charming and so they'll say of the other partner, they're mentally ill, they're not fit to be a parent. And because of the nature of their personality structure, like they're just very charming and they can pretty much run rings around or everyone else. Like I guess I'm just wondering, like I'm sure you are, you're aware of that. Do you ever do personality assessments or is that not really a thing? Is this a myth?

[00:10:42] Kate: Certainly they are not a myth. They are absolutely a thing. If there's any concerns in relation to that, that that is the potential scope to do further assessment. Uh, typically we would do that as part of a psychological, an independent psychological evaluation... I, uh, or a risk assessment that is specific, specifically tailored to that individual parent. So that would form, um, its own assessment that that then is considered in conjunction with the family report.

[00:11:08] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. Okay, cool. So you would do further, like as part of a psychological assessment, you would do further assessment of personality.

[00:11:16] Kate: Correct. Yes. I think that's where there's concerns around that. I think that's very important.

[00:11:21] Bronwyn: Okay. Some other maybe potential misconceptions... I guess maybe the biggest thing that listeners might be interested in is this concept of parental alienation. Is that something that you're involved in as a psych with assessing? What do you think of that concept? Uh, yeah, I think that's all the, the question

[00:11:39] Kate: Yeah, sure.

[00:11:40] Bronwyn: Parental alienation go.

[00:11:42] Kate: Wow. It is a huge topic. I think we could do a podcast on that, on its own. Uh, however, it, it certainly exists. Yes. I think, um, that we need to acknowledge that it does exist. It is not every case. Uh, we need to look at this... The way that I, uh, and that the research tends to phrase it these days is the resist refuse dynamic. Um, so basically it's, it's looking around a child, uh, resisting and refusing time with the other parent.

[00:12:08] Bronwyn: Sure.

[00:12:09] Kate: Which is, I guess the, uh, the outcome of parental alienation. Uh, we need to really look at as well, why a child is doing that. So while a child might be resisting or refusing, so are there any factors with that parent that they're not spending time with? Uh, is it, is it anything to do in that dynamic prior? What was the relationship prior in terms of the separation? Uh, so were they actually in a, in a, in a family dynamic, in a structure where they were supported in that relationship prior to separation.

[00:12:38] And then post-separation. We need to look at what's actually going on for this child in terms of when did the, when did the refusal start? What does that look like? What's been attempted, uh, and and are they showing any signs? One of the biggest things is around ambivalence. So are they showing any ambivalence to spending time with that parent or are they flatly refusing? Those sorts of questions would be asked.

[00:12:59] Bronwyn: Yeah. I guess like, okay, so just hearing you speak to this, my thoughts are... I feel like this is a very complex area. I feel like there would be a lot of pressure on you to get this right, and make sure that the children are well supported. I guess I'm just wondering how you cope with that.

[00:13:16] Kate: Great question. So for starters, if for starters, it is not our role to be determined as a fact, or to say, definitely yes, this has happened, or that's happened, for example, so there may be some clear evidence to support that. However, that's the job of the judge. If that's the job of the judge or the registrar who might be hearing the matter, uh, that is not our role.

[00:13:35] So kind of taking a step back to say, I can, I can speak to themes, I can speak to concerns, I can speak to what the evidence is suggesting, and if on that basis here is what I think might need to happen for the care arrangements for the children. Uh, however, it's, it's. It's a shared responsibility in terms of figuring out what's actually going on here and what's going to happen from there. Just because I've said it, um, doesn't make it so, uh, in terms of a court of law, uh, it does need to be explored further. And also there's going to be evidence that I have not been privy to in the lead up to their, what's called a trial or a final hearing. And so there may be some additional considerations on that. But in terms of, uh, I guess what keeps us sane in doing this job, uh,

[00:14:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that's what I was asking.

[00:14:19] Kate: Yeah. Absolutely. Your self care is pivotal in this role. I cannot stress that enough. I think that we really need to take care of ourselves. Obviously, we're dealing with a very emotive space and um, high conflict often as well. And you, you're human beings, we're not robots, and that's bound to have an impact in terms of that transference, countertransference, um, on ourselves. And so we really need to look after ourselves.

[00:14:46] I debrief a lot, um, with peers. I have a great network of, of peers. I also do, um, supervision. So I have a supervisor who helps support me as well to talk about this stuff. Um, but it's also about having your own, uh, individual, I guess self-care plan. I'm such a big advocate for self-care. Um, and that's really, really important to have. What is it that you do? For example, you know, I might come home of a day and immediately I get changed and it's sort of like, is like, okay, I'm just completely, that's, you know, work Kate versus home Kate, uh, is a very different person. That kind of signals to my brain that the day has ended. Um, it might be that I listen to music or I watch a trashy TV show to really sort of take my mind off things.

[00:15:29] Bronwyn: Yeah, I, I'm wondering as well, because, so I do, um, psychological intervention, like that's my, that's my main jam. I do therapy. Um, and when I do therapy, I feel like there is a lot of detail, there's a lot of information and I go through that quite carefully.

[00:15:47] But I just feel like with your work, it would be like next level. So it's like I try to be as detailed as I can and really consider all the information I gather from clients so that I can make a good formulation and really serve them well to do a good treatment plan. But yeah, I just feel like you're like with your work, like maybe that, yeah, there would just be so much detail that you need to consider. I guess my question is like about workload. Like I just feel like maybe with the complexity of these cases, it's like you wouldn't wanna have more than like maybe three going at the same time, or could you just speak to workload?

[00:16:21] Kate: Great question. So I am a private practitioner, so I essentially can dictate my workload. Obviously though, depending on the complexity of the case, sometimes that pushes out. Um, I would absolutely, as you've suggested, would try not to hold too many cases at the one time. I think that does you a disservice, but also the families a disservice.

[00:16:39] Um, and I'm one of those people that I like to write things as fresh as I can, so I take a little bit of time to, um, often write up everything that we've talked about, uh, up until sort of my evaluation. And then I might take maybe like a week break to think about it and be working on another case and then I'll come back and write the evaluation so I can really kind of tease it out and nut it out and give myself that, that distance from it.

[00:17:03] Um, so that's one of the things that I'll do, but it's certainly workload is an issue and I think you really need to be careful about the way you navigate that and be realistic in terms of how many reports you think you can get done in a certain timeframe. Uh, I also make sure I've got a, a fantastic admin team behind me supporting me as well. So in terms of making sure that things are are running, that I've got documents in time 'cause I've obviously gotta read court documents before I see them.

[00:17:29] Um, and also as well in terms of, I make sure I give them a timeframe. So it might be, for example, four to six weeks before the report will be released. And I often say that to parents as well. When they're leaving. I say, look, just be mindful. It's probably gonna be a couple of weeks till you hear from me, so don't expect anything, um, you know, in a quick turnaround.

[00:17:47] Bronwyn: Yep. So four to six weeks.

[00:17:49] Kate: Usually at the moment I'm about four to six weeks. Yeah.

[00:17:52] Bronwyn: Okay. Sure. Um, now that makes a lot of sense. I have a, I have a weird question. I don't know if it's a weird question. Um, because something you said, I was like, that's a great idea to um, have a week, kind of, break from it. 'cause I was gonna ask about how you stay objective. Like, because you know you're a human and you might have emotions about cases. Um, and you know, when we're emotional, um, maybe we can write things that go towards our, our biases and our attitudes and how we feel about things. And so I'm thinking like, oh, that'd be good. Like a week break is like kind of, uh, letting that emotion simmer and then you can come back to it with a more objective frame. How do you keep that objectivity and neutrality? Is, is that your main strategy?

[00:18:32] Kate: Yeah, certainly. I think that's one of the strategies. Uh, the other thing is really keeping in mind, it's not my family. And I know that, uh, and really going, what is in the best interest of these children? That's how I remain objective is and really going, what evidence do I have in, and when I say evidence as well, by the way, it might be whether it is a court document or not, or whether it is, um, collateral, what we call collateral information. So information from external sources.

[00:18:58] Um, it's also evidence in the form of, you know, what did I observe when I looked at the children interacting with their parents? What did I notice when the parents, for example, if they've walked past each other in the waiting room, what did that look like? Or they've helped each other back to the car, you know? Um, what have I noticed when we've interviewed in terms of what they were talking about and their explanation and their understanding of what's happened. Uh, so there's a number of things when I say

[00:19:21] evidence, that we consider, uh, that would come back to formulate that opinion to keep you remaining objective. And again, just really taking that time to step out of that kind of role of being immersed in all the data to then come back to it, I think is really valuable.

[00:19:38] Bronwyn: Totally. What prompted you to get into this area, like into forensic psychology, into this area specifically because, yeah, it does sound like a, a very difficult, I mean, quite rewarding area to work in, but quite difficult as well. What was your personal motivation?

[00:19:53] Kate: I laugh, uh, I laugh when I get asked this question because when I went to uni, the biggest, I, I think this was one of the areas where it was just a no-go area for most.

[00:20:02] Bronwyn: Yes. I avoid it.

[00:20:03] Kate: -dissuaded. Yeah, exactly. That's commonly what I hear, uh, is that people avoid it because partly because they hear the reputation that we get reported to the board more than anybody else. Um, how look... possibly, it possibly is true. Um, but I think there's also another fact, a lot of factors that contribute to that. And it's just because you necessarily may get reported, it doesn't mean you've necessarily done anything wrong as well. So I think there's a lot of, you know, I, I sort of try and stand myself on, I, uh, pride myself on being ethical in my practices and, and, you know, striking the balance of being objective and making sure that I, you know, courteous, respectful, and responsive to everyone's needs in that space as far as I can be.

[00:20:45] So I think there's gonna be times where yes, you are gonna be reported without any, um, any forewarning or any really insight into that, but we've just gotta kind of roll with it. So yes, probably you are slightly more likely, but I think that if you're in good stead in terms of your ethical practices, then you don't have anything to worry about, uh, in that space.

[00:21:04] But in terms of what got me into this role, um, I kind of fell into it to be perfectly honest. Um, I'd done some, some previous roles, I'd worked with police, I'd worked with, uh, the coroner's court, um, and I'd done some, um, prior to that, one of my placements had been with the Royal Children's Hospital, working with kids in trauma. Um, and ultimately I love working with kids. Um, I really enjoy it, particularly adolescents.

[00:21:27] Bronwyn: Oh really? Oh my gosh.

[00:21:29] Kate: Which is hilarious. Um, so it's some of my, in some of my other work, uh, 'cause I do this, um, in conjunction with a few other roles to sort of diversify both my skillset but also my interests. Um, 'cause that's probably another thing actually for self-care is really kind of making sure that you've got some other things that fill your cup. Um, 'cause family law can be pretty intense, so kind of taking your head out of that space.

[00:21:50] Uh, so I, yeah, so I actually love working with kids and adolescents and, um, I think they can absolutely come out with some cracker, some cracker comments, um, and statements and experiences. So I, that's, that's what really kind of fueled that. And when I, at the time of my career, I was looking for a different role and really I went, oh, if I want to continue to work with kids, kind of now is the chance to get back into that. Um, because it had been a few years and this role came up. Um, so it came up actually internally, so I was an internal clinician for a couple years, uh, before I went out privately. And so that's kind of how I fell into it.

[00:22:25] Bronwyn: Cool. Wow. We are like so opposite, but I'm so glad that you exist 'cause I'm like, it's such a needed area. And you need people who are passionate about working with kids and adolescents and who are passionate about working within the court system. Um, yeah, I wanna stay away from all of those things. So it's like a 10 foot pole.

[00:22:44] Kate: Well, but that's it. And it's also about finding your interest. And if you try it and it's not for you, then that's okay. It's about recognizing, acknowledging that, um, and really finding how you can support people in other ways, uh, you know, even within that space. 'cause there's a whole lot of work sort of on the peripheral, um, in family law proceedings.

[00:23:01] Bronwyn: Okay. Could you just speak to, um, that diversity that you were mentioning in, in how you, you know, that's part of your self-care practice? I'm just interested in like, yeah. What, what else you do in your professional life.

[00:23:14] Kate: Sure. Yeah. So I, I wear a number of hats. It depends on, depends on the year as to how many hats I wanna have. Um, and I think that's, again, probably me, um, needing to be mindful of my own self-care. And so I do some work, uh, on what's called an intermediary, uh, with the Department of Justice. So I assist, uh, as a, in a contract role, uh, I assist police in relation to helping witnesses, vulnerable witnesses with their communication needs in their video statements so they're theirs.

[00:23:43] Bronwyn: Oh!

[00:23:44] Kate: In sexual assault matters. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, I get a lot out of it. I really enjoy it. Uh, and then we also assist when they go through the court process as well, so we'll sit with witnesses, uh, when they're giving evidence.

[00:23:58] Bronwyn: Gosh. Yeah. 'cause you could imagine just, that'd be just the scariest time for this person. Um, yeah. It's, it sounds like it's so valuable.

[00:24:06] Kate: Being that emotional support is, uh, is great. Being a, it's not just the emotional, but it's the communication needs in terms of how they understood questions that are being asked. The timing of questions, sentence structure, all that kind of stuff, uh, falls into play there.

[00:24:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, because I could imagine, like for some people they just freeze and you know, it's, it's so hard for them. It's so anxiety inducing and so stressful. So to have you there, it just sounds like, you know, what a lifesaver.

[00:24:30] Kate: Yeah, it's, it's very rewarding. Uh, it comes with its challenges needing to sort of be on your toes, but equally, I love, I love that side of the work. It also keeps me kind of engaged in, in a different area of psychology practice.

[00:24:42] Uh, and then I also, uh, have a company called Workplace Conversations. And that is in relation to providing support to high pressure industries. Uh, so in relation to their own wellbeing, managing staff wellbeing and supporting them through that. Uh, at the moment we've got a bit of a focus in relation to lawyers. Part of that came out of my work with family lawyers, uh, and just dealing with the pressures that they deal with and acknowledging this work is hard and, you know, let alone their own issues with workload and what might be going on at home.

[00:25:14] Uh, so this kind of stemmed from that. And I, I am so passionate about self-care and helping people navigate that because we're not, as psychologists, we are trained and we have specific modules at uni that help us navigate this, and we understand supervision and the, you know, the positives that can come from this. Uh, but other, other areas and practices aren't. Um, and it's really interesting. I just assume 'cause we know how to do it. Everyone knows how to do it. It's not always the case!

[00:25:40] Bronwyn: It's a nice assumption, really. It's a generous assumption.

[00:25:43] Kate: Yeah. So we're just, I've just done some, uh, research partnering with RMIT, um, in relation to that space as well. So it's been really great to kind of see some of the themes that are coming out and looking at that notion of proactive support.

[00:25:55] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's, it sounds great that you've got this diversity. It sounds like that really helps you.

[00:26:00] Kate: Absolutely. It, it's, it's definitely one of the biggest things that I've needed. Really helps against burnout. Uh, not to say that people, you know, still can't be at risk of burnout or that you can't enjoy your role just being you and doing your one task. Um, I'm just one of those people that, that this just works for me and you've really gotta find the balance, um, and kind of find what's gonna work in terms of the scope of your practice.

[00:26:22] Bronwyn: I think burnout prevention is all, is literally like what works for you? So it's like that's fantastic.

[00:26:28] From the perspective of being a psychologist, I reckon, uh, I would speak for most listeners when they say that they would be terrified of speaking to a lawyer. So if a lawyer ever contacted them, like it would just be the most terrifying thing ever. Um, could you just help maybe alleviate some of our anxiety around that? Um, please don't tell us that lawyers are actually terrifying. Um, how do I, yeah. Um, how do I, how do I speak well to a lawyer? How do I collaborate well with them? What's their, what's the jam? What's their angle? I don't get them.

[00:26:56] Kate: Yeah, so most of, most of, I'm not sure that I always get their angle either. Uh- look, most of them are not scary. Most of them are lovely to work with, and I think we are really moving towards that space of collaborative practice. Um, and you know, that being in everybody's best interests, uh, so for me it's about everyone respecting boundaries and roles within that space. And I think for clinicians, it's really trying to work out where do we fit in terms of what's our scope, um, and engaging with a lawyer, obviously in a respectful manner. But equally we need to assert ourselves in terms of what is it for one, what information do you need?

[00:27:30] Um, I guess one of the biggest things I hear often is that people don't know what the referral question actually. Is it's this broad, you know, kind of fishing expedition, and it's like, well, what do you want from me? How can I give you a good report or even provide you with information on my client if it's in a therapeutic space, if I actually have no idea what the referral question is?

[00:27:52] And so I think getting clarity, I think also speaking with lawyers, um, one thing to keep in mind is around where is everything up to in the process in terms of why is that lawyer contacting you? At what stage is everything up to? What information are they wanting? And being very firm with this is what I can provide you with. Even if it's not what they asked for, you know, you can go back and say, this is, I understand this is what you want, however, this is what I'm able to provide. So let me know if this is within the scope of what you're after.

[00:28:21] Bronwyn: Maybe for, um, an early career psychologist, would you recommend seeking supervision support? 'cause I think that can be very scary for early career psychs to be able to very firmly assert their boundaries.

[00:28:34] Kate: 100%. And I would say it's not just early career psychologists, guys, uh, it's, it's, it's across the board. Everyone, everyone, everyone freaks out the minute they hear anything to do with court, um, even if it's not just family court, other courts, other jurisdictions, it's really, really important to get that support. Uh, whether it's peer support, whether it's support from a, a supervisor that you speak to often, whether it's through your organization, um, whoever you might be working for. It's really, really important to share that load and get some advice. Um, and also as well, I've heard people sort of shoot off emotive, quite emotive responses because that lawyer might have triggered them.

[00:29:11] Yeah. And that's, to be honest, that's one of the worst things you can do, just in terms of that's not helping, it's not helping you, it's not helping your client. Um, and it's not necessarily helping with the relationship with that lawyer. Um, so really taking a step back and also keeping in mind that nothing is ever, it can feel very personal. It can feel like they're targeting you or your clinical skills. Um, they're not, they're actually trying to advocate for whoever they're working for. So their client on their end. So they've got a job to do, they've got a role to play and they're just trying to play it. And so it's really hard to try and separate that from our own clinical skills that we've worked hard for.

[00:29:49] If you're at uni, if you are a student, you have worked years to get to where you are, um, and worked really hard. And then when you are out in the workforce, um, it could feel really isolated to be like, hang on. Like, why are you questioning what CBT is or why are you questioning that I used EMDR or you know, that I've diagnosed this person? Uh, there could be lots of different questions.

[00:30:09] Bronwyn: I think like that, that sounds really key. Not personalizing it, because I could immediately imagine, um, say what my emotional reaction might be to maybe if I personalized it. And a lawyer was like, why are you diagnosing this person in this way? And my, my unhinged emotional response might be like, did you know that I've studied for eight years at university and I've had an exam and I know how to diagnose people and how dare you? And yeah, that's my unhinged emotional response. But you know, like that's me personalizing it.

[00:30:38] But if I distance Yeah, yeah, totally. And, but if I distanced myself, I'd be like, oh, okay. They're just literally asking the question so that they can advocate for their client and get the information that they need.

[00:30:51] Kate: Beautifully said. Exactly right. That's exactly what we need to keep in mind. But again, we're only human beings, and so our initial reaction is going to be this one of fear and concern and. Potentially anger from some people, and that's all okay. And it's normal with it's, it's like you said before around kind of having the insight to recognize what our triggers are and to recognize when someone has pushed a button and kind of going, hang on, take a step back.

[00:31:14] And also I try and remind myself as well, I'm the expert here, or I'm the clinician who has this knowledge. This person has not done 8, 9, 10 years at university and gone on to become a psychologist. They don't have that title and that qualification. So therefore you are the expert in that space about talking to your client's needs or talking to the family's needs in, in terms of an independent assessment.

[00:31:36] Bronwyn: Mm. Okay, great. So keep calm and don't personalize, and, remember that you are the expert. Seek support.

[00:31:43] Kate: Exactly right. Absolutely.

[00:31:45] Bronwyn: Don't respond straight away.

[00:31:47] Kate: Do not, do not, do not. Absolutely not. You could do... You know what I say to people all the time, I'm like, draft it all you want and just chuck it in your draft folder or send it to someone else. Send it to a colleague.

[00:31:58] Bronwyn: Yeah. Uh, totally. Absolutely. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. That really helps.

[00:32:03] Okay. I've got kind of like two practical questions. the first one is, and this is myself included, like I actually, I think I say in my paperwork, like I don't see people involved in court proceedings, and that's because I work as a solo private practitioner. I just don't feel like I have the knowledge nor the support network currently to be able to support people who are going through those proceedings well.

[00:32:29] But I guess for. Practitioners who do want to support clients involved in family court proceedings, what advice would you give them to prepare them for this type of client? This type of work?

[00:32:45] Kate: Hmm. Well, for starters, I think that best laid plans can be in place in terms of having things in your letters saying, I'm not gonna work with family law or any client court based clients. But, um, good luck. Um, look, sometimes, sometimes it works and it can work for people that are not actively engaged. But what I will say is someone may not have been engaged at the time they started seeing you, and then lo and behold, halfway through something comes up.

[00:33:10] So I'll just put that out there. Yeah, yeah. You're gonna have to think about what do I do in that scenario? So there's a couple of things. One is about whether you feel comfortable continuing to see them in that process, because obviously you've got the option of referring on, you always have that option. I feel like people don't utilize it enough if you don't feel skilled or confident enough in that particular area. We are not experts at everything. We can't be, we have our special niche areas of practice. So if this is an area that you are not feeling comfortable with or you can't comment on, then obviously you can refer on. That's sort of point number one to remember.

[00:33:42] Um, point number two is really remaining working at where your role is in that space. So for example, if I'm seeing someone therapeutically, I cannot prepare a family report for them. I'm not independent. That's, that's just, it's a no-no, it's conflicting roles and I can't do it.

[00:33:59] So not kind of knowing where all boundaries are in that space, but also as well, just because a lawyer, for example, says my client's in court and they want a letter from you around their mental health and all the sessions that they've had. Um, you don't necessarily need to provide that because you can also, again, ask more questions.

[00:34:16] Obviously, if you're subpoenaed, that's very different because that's a court order that you have to follow. Uh, but otherwise you don't have to always hand over information just because it's being asked of you. So keep that in mind.

[00:34:27] Having said that, you also don't want to, um, unnecessarily obstruct. For example, court proceedings or, or do something that's not gonna help your client by being resistant, um, in that space. But it's also about being mindful of the way that you frame information and what information you are providing. So what's needed versus what do you want to give and why do you want to give it, I think is a really important question because we are in a helping profession, so we need to be very mindful of being in this helping profession and wanting to provide more information than perhaps is required, which can ultimately actually not work in your client's favor.

[00:35:05] Bronwyn: Okay. Yeah, I've seen, um, just on the socials I have seen, uh, what I think is this tension between people not wanting to release information if it's not a subpoena versus like I think there's like, you know, there is privacy, like there is the privacy act, but it, I think the lawyer is like, that's kind of obstructive. And then like I'm wondering like, is that kind of obstructive on the psychologist part? Like, you need to provide your client with health information if they request it and then people are saying like, the client doesn't understand. This is a complex area.

[00:35:37] Kate: Oh, certainly I would be absolutely sitting down with your client to discuss this. I would say, look, I've received a request from your lawyer. Are you aware? Do you know what this means? Here's what I can provide. Here's, you know, the information that might be in there. Because some people don't know what information's in their file, um, or the, their sessions and sort of talking them through that and saying, this is realistically the information I'm gonna provide and this is where it's gonna go. Are you aware? It's, it's informed consent.

[00:36:03] Bronwyn: Wow. So, you know, people need to talk to supervisors, peers, like professional bodies, like read stuff right?

[00:36:10] Kate: Absolutely. Uh, the APS has some information on board. Um, AHPRA has got some information on their website too. Uh, but again, seeking supervision from someone who is in the area or who has done this before, just anyone with some experience. Um, coming back to your ethical principles is really important in this space as well, that notion of informed consent. Does someone actually understand where this information is going and what information is being accessed is really important, but equally as well around being mindful of not sharing, for example, test data. You know, we're never gonna give out test data because that's, that's for us to interpret because we're specialists in that area who have trained to read this data. I'm not gonna give that over necessarily to a lawyer who has no training or background in that.

[00:36:51] Bronwyn: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm just thinking from what you're sharing, I'm like, yeah, I would want somebody to hold my hand through this process.

[00:36:58] Kate: Yeah. And, and to be fair, that's, that's absolutely expected. And it might take you a few, it might take you a few goes for that to feel comfortable that you know what you're doing and that what you're providing is sufficient or appropriate.

[00:37:11] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay.

[00:37:12] Kate: And also as well, one thing to kind of come back to is that notion of supporting your client afterwards. So we often we'll do that whole informed consent and we've gone through this process, but there could be a rupture in your relationship and in the therapeutic bond, um, in sharing that information.

[00:37:28] Bronwyn: Yeah. Wow.

[00:37:29] Kate: You know, so supporting them. Yeah. So import, supporting them through that process and kind of discussing that in therapy around that, that rupture is super important.

[00:37:38] Bronwyn: Wow. Yeah, I can see how that would be important.

[00:37:41] If there's any listeners who are A, either thinking of doing a Master's in Forensic Psychology or just working in the space, um, or working in family court, um, what advice would you give them? Like what do you wish you had known when you first started out?

[00:37:57] Kate: Ooh, uh, what would I have liked to have known? I think, I think that it is intense. So you do have to be prepared. You know, that you are, that you are in a good head space, yourself going into that area. Um, that you, if you're going into the private practice area of this, uh, whether it's forensic psychology or within the family court, is that you are very organized. I think you need to be quite organized person, uh, to, in terms of that, very diligent in terms of getting your own work done and not being sort of required to, I guess, navigate deadlines based on what other people tell you. You sort of have to navigate that yourself a little bit, uh, and try and obviously juggle multiple cases at the one time. So that's another consideration as well.

[00:38:38] Um, I think that getting as much experience in exposure to the legal system can be really helpful. So whether it's going in and sitting in some hearings, um, at different courts and kind of getting a sense of what that looks like, uh, could give you some ideas. Talking to someone who's been working in that space for a while is also really helpful coming into it to work out whether you kind of had that, um, interest level. I, I'm obviously biased 'cause I love forensic psychology and I wish we had more of us.

[00:39:04] Bronwyn: I wish there was more of you too.

[00:39:07] Kate: I think it's fantastic area. It's it. Um, always very interesting to me. It's, if you are interested in kind of that investigative assessment side of things, I think it's a fantastic area to go into. Equally therapeutically, it can be, um, challenging, but so, so rewarding at the other end of that. Um, and it definitely tests your skills. There's always work. I'll just put that out there in forensics.

[00:39:29] Um, you know, for me, forensic is all about working in and of the legal system. So whatever that looks like, that can work in a number of ways. It doesn't necessarily have to be directly in a court setting. Um, and also as well, keeping in mind that you, no one's done it until they've done it, so you don't understand what it's like. You don't, you might feel nervous, of course. You might say, I couldn't do it, and then you do it and you go, oh, okay, I can do that. I can do this. I am skilled in that area. Um, but it does take time to kind of work those skills up. And so being kind of, being kind to yourself, um, in those initial stages and really going, I'm learning and also taking every negative experience, you know?

[00:40:09] I, as an, uh, so we are called expert witnesses in the family court when we're giving independent family reports, when we're, um, doing those. We're, we are cross examined sometimes, so we're put on the stand and we're asked questions by both sides. And do you know what? Sometimes it goes really well and it's fantastic experience and other times it's not, you know, sometimes it is a negative experience. Well, but this is it, right? Until you've done it a couple of times, then you kind of go, okay, this is how it works. It ebbs and flows. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it's a not so great experience. But every time, particularly when it's a not so great experience, is, I can reflect on that and say, how can I change that or how can I adapt my practice to then not have that happen the next time?

[00:40:48] Bronwyn: Yes. Okay. So it's a,

[00:40:50] Kate: You know? Or what have I learned?

[00:40:51] Bronwyn: Yeah. Learning process.

[00:40:53] Kate: Absolutely. And you keep, you know, you build your skills that way.

[00:40:56] Bronwyn: No, that sounds wonderful. So, Kate, like what do, what motivates you to continue working in this field? Like what do you find the most rewarding about it?

[00:41:05] Kate: Yeah. Well, as I said before, working with kids is really important to me because I feel like we're genuinely helping them because if you think about it in the court process, in family law, they don't necessarily have a prominent voice.

[00:41:16] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:41:16] Kate: Okay, so they've got their parents, they've got a judge. They may have an independent children's lawyer, but they don't actually, they don't get to participate in the direct court proceedings for good reason.

[00:41:24] Uh, but they don't, so the judge doesn't get to meet them. So my thing is that the information we provide to the judge helps them because that helps 'em understand the children and the dynamic within the family. So I sit there saying, we're an additional piece of the puzzle to consider, and I think it's really helpful. Um, from my perspective, I feel like it's really rewarding that in some way we're helping contribute to that. So we're helping to give children a voice in a space where perhaps they, they traditionally don't always have that opportunity, but we're also helping the wider community in terms of the judiciary and the family understand what's actually going on.

[00:41:56] Um, and I think it's really rewarding too, to try and help people through a process. It's really hard, you know, psychology is very, um, very gray area, as you would know. And the law is very black and white. And so it's how can we kind of marry the two together? Um, you know, what, what is it that I can, I guess, impart to the legal system that can be helpful?

[00:42:14] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I, that's, I think that's amazing. And you know, I've read a lot about the family court, just, um, I actually read Jess Hill's book. Um, Look What You, Look What You Made Me Do. Have you read that one?

[00:42:26] Kate: I have.

[00:42:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, it, uh, amazing. Not for the faint hearted listeners, if you want to read it. Yeah. Like, just take care, um, make sure you're emotionally okay.

[00:42:35] Um, but yeah, like from reading that, I was like, I remember like feeling like afterwards I was like, the family court system needs reform, and I was like, ba blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, but yeah, it just sounds like so valuable to have you in this process. So I'm really glad that you exist and that you're doing the work that you do.

[00:42:50] Kate: Thank you. Look, it's so, it is so hard and it is, um, you know. It can be difficult to hear and read some of the things that are set out there and some of the, I guess, misinformation that can be spread around us. And, and I'm not saying you, no one's perfect. No clinician is perfect. No report is perfect. Um, but equally as well, I, for those of us that try to do the best that we can, um, you know, it's, it's a very, it can be a very hard space to work in for that reason. And of course, of course there are gonna be concerns raised. And I think part of the problem with sometimes where it, it lands is that people don't know what we do or don't know how we practice. And that, I think the fear of the unknown is what sort of drives some of this, um, concern.

[00:43:31] Bronwyn: I agree. Like for me it's like, yeah, it's. Uh, you know, this has been a very illuminating conversation for me because it has been like, I don't know what, what you do. And it's like, you are, you know, you're my colleague. But yeah, that fear of the unknown can be scary.

[00:43:44] Kate: Yeah. And there's also the element too about protecting both families, um, and us as practitioners in that space. Um, you know, in terms of privacy, um, around the, the court proceedings and those sorts of things. So there's reasons why, for example, reports aren't released to everybody. Um, and, and a lot of that's around protecting families um, in that space.

[00:44:04] And I think that really, if we come back to the principles of the best interest of the child, that's what we're aiming for. And that's what we need to keep in the forefront of our mind. And I think we also, you know, we need to give, um, consideration to those things when they're, when they're put out there, whether it's on socials or whether it's in the news. And we absolutely need to stand up and look at our system and how can we do things better for families because we don't wanna promote trauma.

[00:44:27] Bronwyn: No, 100%. No. The opposite. Yeah.

[00:44:31] Kate: Exactly right. And I think we need to acknowledge that, you know, going through some of these processes are really hard.

[00:44:36] Bronwyn: Yeah. Oh, 100%. Um, Kate, is there anything that we haven't spoken to or anything that I haven't asked you that I should have asked you?

[00:44:44] Kate: Oh, that's, uh, always, always a difficult question. Look, I think it's really just making sure that people understand that it's not, it's not work that you can't do, you know, we'd love to have more people in this space. I think that that, as much as there can be the challenges, it's also super rewarding, uh, working with families, seeing those families that progress in a positive way, um, and seeing families over time. You know, I've, I've had some families that I've seen therapeutically over time and seeing some of those, um, positive changes and positive movements, uh, is so, it can be so rewarding.

[00:45:15] And again, knowing that you're part of a wider system that's helping, um, and that this is something that the Law doesn't offer. Because they're not psychologists. Um, and, and also so, you know, our social, social worker colleagues as well that work in this space too. You know, what we can all offer collectively is that mental health clinicians is fantastic.

[00:45:32] Bronwyn: Absolutely. Well, Kate, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We've so appreciated your expertise and insights here. If listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:45:43] Kate: Absolutely. So I'm on LinkedIn, so definitely join me on LinkedIn, and through Workplace Conversations. So I've got an email address there that I'm sure you can pop up, um, on the link as well. But Workplace Conversations would definitely be welcome to hear from you.

[00:45:57] Bronwyn: Yeah. And could you just remind us what Workplace Conversations is?

[00:46:01] Kate: Yeah, so Workplace Conversations is all about, uh, assisting high pressure industries in relation to their wellbeing and proactive support, uh, which at the moment has a strong focus in lawyer wellbeing.

[00:46:12] Bronwyn: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much again, Kate. It's been such a pleasure to have you on and I'm sure listeners really benefited from this episode.

[00:46:20] And listeners, if you are loving the show and you don't wanna miss an episode, do make sure you press follow on your podcast listening app or in Spotify. And if you enjoyed this episode, leave us a five star rating and review because it really helps other people find the show.

[00:46:34] That's all for now. Thanks so much for listening. Have a good one and catch you next time. Bye.