Working as a mental health researcher (with Dr Alix Woolard)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we're talking about what it's like working as a researcher.

Have you ever wondered what it's actually like to work in research? Maybe you've thought about stepping into research, but you don't know what to expect, or you're curious about how research translates into real world clinical work. In this episode, we're diving into the surprising realities of being a mental health researcher, and here to help us out with this topic is our guest, Dr. Alix Woolard. Hi Alix.

[00:00:39] Alix: Hi Bronwyn. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:42] Bronwyn: It's such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non-work passion is?

[00:00:48] Alix: I would be so happy to. So I'm Alix, I'm a Senior Research Fellow at The Kids Institute-, or The Kids Research Institute, I should say, and I'll be referring to it as The Kids.

[00:01:01] Bronwyn: Yeah. Shorter.

[00:01:02] Alix: A bit of a mouthful. Um, so I am, yeah, like you said, a researcher, but I'm also, I'm a student again. So I've gone back to uni and I'm finishing my Master of Clinical Psychology this year. I am many things. I'm a friend, I'm a partner, I'm a cat, dog, and mum.

I also have about a million, uh, non-work passions. So I've actually, I've recently been diagnosed with ADHD, so this kind of makes sense that I have lots of different things on the go. So I'm currently diving into sourdough, and baking.

[00:01:40] Bronwyn: Cool.

[00:01:40] Alix: I'm super into that in the moment. It, it seemed to be a bit of a COVID trend a few years ago, but I'm, I'm getting into that now. I'm really loving it. But I, you know, I do lots of things. Yoga, weightlifting, um, those are my current things as well.

[00:01:54] Bronwyn: Yeah. I love how you said current things because as you know, I'm also diagnosed with ADHD and that's how I describe my hobbies as well. I'm like, currently this, but ask me again in three months or less.

[00:02:03] Alix: Yes, exactly.

[00:02:03] Bronwyn: It might be different set of things.

[00:02:05] Alix: Exactly, right? And they do, they just chop and change. And um, actually I quite like it like that. You try new things.

[00:02:12] Bronwyn: Excellent. And I guess the first question I wanted to ask you was why research? Like how did you come to be interested in working in research? Was there something that motivated you or other influences? Tell us about it.

[00:02:24] Alix: Well, it's not your traditional story, I would say. So I think for a lot of people, you know, research, you get into it because you're super interested in it early on. But for me that was not the case. And in fact, I remember I did, so I was, I did my undergrad in psychology as well, and I remember, uh, it was one of our first lectures and research, and I was thinking, ah, not for me. I wanna be a therapist. I wanna go and do clinical work and I don't, I don't wanna do research.

10 years later, uh, that's exactly what I did, but I kind of fell into it. So, I, I, you know, everyone who's done the undergrad and, and kind of the studies in psychology, uh, would understand that you do have to do a bit of research. And so I had my honors year, my honors thesis, and I actually, I got really lucky. I was asked to be, on uh, what we call a randomized control trial. And going into it, I was like, oh, cool, yeah, I'll be on a RCT for sure. I had no idea what it was, but I really enjoyed it was this wonderful study that was looking at infant development and maternal mental health across the first year of life. So we followed mums and their babies and we looked at lots of different aspects of development and mental health, and I really enjoyed it. And I ended up, I loved working with my, my supervisor, her name's Dr. Tsia Benders. She's from the Netherlands.

And at the end of that year, you know, I, I enjoyed it so much, she was like, why don't you apply for a PhD scholarship? And I'm thinking, I'm not smart enough to do that. There's just, yeah, no way I wouldn't get it, but whatever, I'll just put an application in. And I ended up getting it and so I thought, okay, well that's what I'm gonna do now. I really enjoy it, so I'll just keep doing it, and that was kind of the start. That was the start, of it.

[00:04:20] Bronwyn: Wow. What did you enjoy about it the most? What grabbed you?

[00:04:23] Alix: I really enjoy the work with participants. So like, kind of that face-to-face testing. I think it's also really cool that you can be curious and you can try new things and every day is kind of different. You don't typically get stuck in a rut. Uh, and yeah, so I think in that first year it was just really cool to, to kind of go into a big research institute, and see different people every day and do lots of different testing, lots of different assessment, and to try and like put all of these pieces together. It's kind of like a puzzle. So how does all of this make sense? It, it was like allowing me to be curious.

[00:05:07] Bronwyn: it sounds like you had a really good relationship with your supervisor as well.

[00:05:11] Alix: Yes, definitely. So I ended up having, so I had her as one of my PhD supervisors, but I actually had five supervisors.

[00:05:18] Bronwyn: Oh gosh. That's a lot.

[00:05:20] Alix: It's a lot. You don't typically have that many. So maybe like two, maybe three. But I had five and I had some, like I think anyone who's had multiple PhD supervisors knows that you have different relationships with, with them and, and you are closer to some of them. And there were three in particular that I was really close with and they were really supportive. And, even now, people ask me for advice going into a PhD, and I think your relationship with your supervisor is the most important thing.

[00:05:54] Bronwyn: Yeah, I agree. We've done an episode on tips for folks doing a PhD and that was the exact advice we gave. We gave the advice about supervision, it's the most important thing. And the relationships with your supervisors?

[00:06:05] Alix: Yeah, totally. That's, I mean, you will always have challenges in a PhD. It is a challenging, it is a challenging experience and it's a hard degree and you know, you hope that you're passionate about your research project, but really what will get you through is supportive supervisors.

[00:06:22] Bronwyn: Totally, and it's like they can make or break the project really. And because you're just starting out in research, you don't really know what things are supposed to look like. Like I know of PhD folk coming into it and they're like, oh, I'll do eight studies for my PhD. And I'm like, probably not!

[00:06:35] Alix: Oh, and you do, you hear, you do hear some horror stories and I just think, you know it, it could be so different. Or you hear of people leaving the PhD early because they've had such a horrible experience and I just think, you know, your supervisor is there to support you and make sure this sort of stuff doesn't happen. Yeah.

[00:06:54] Bronwyn: Yeah. So you had a really great start to your research career. Also, working on an RCT is really exciting. Like, it's like you're working directly on an intervention. Was it double blind as well, or?

[00:07:04] Alix: Yeah, so it was, um, it was massive. It was huge. So it was actually a, a substudy of a larger RCT and it was, um, more bio, biomed sort of stuff. They were looking at a new treatment for asthma because It's really exciting, it's really cool. And I, I, I really felt out of my depth to be quite honest, you know, sitting around a table and we would have our team meetings with all of these medical doctors and I'm like, oh my God, I what you're talking about. Um, but you know, it's funny, they felt the same about. All of the, the psychologists and all of the psych students. So yeah, that was, that's quite funny upon reflection.

Um, but yeah, the larger RCT was looking at the, this new treatment because asthma gets worse in pregnancy very often. Uh, and it can impact baby. Yeah, so, yeah, it was, it was really cool to see the medical side of things and they learn a lot from us as well, looking at kind of the mental health and, um, perinatal mental health outcomes as well.

[00:08:07] Bronwyn: Yeah. So is perinatal mental health still a major focus for you, or have your research interests changed?

[00:08:13] Alix: Yeah, totally, they are. Um, so I'm super duper interested in perinatal mental health. But I have... it's evolved, right? So when I first started my PhD, and I think this is actually a really important point, you don't have to be pigeonholed into your PhD topic, right? So you can, you can kind of change you, you do have that I think people feel like they need to stay where they start, but that's just not the case at all.

So I actually started mainly focusing on autism and autism research. So that was my sort of like piece to the puzzle in this RCT, uh, because we, we actually found that the, there's certain inflammation markers that happen very early on when a mother has asthma and it does increase the likelihood of autism for the baby.

And so I was looking at, at kind of like early signs of autism for these babies and it was really cool 'cause I, I got to learn how to assess, how to do all of these assessments for autism very early on, which now is very handy for me working clinically and I that happens quite often, you have these skills that you pick up and research that help with, um, your clinical work.

Uh, but yeah, so I started in, in autism and I did my first postdoc in autism as well. And then, so that was all over east and then, or in New South Wales, I should say. Um, we don't, we don't say over east, over east.

[00:09:40] Bronwyn: When you're, when you're actually over-

[00:09:41] Alix: Yeah, yeah. When you're over there. Um, so I, I say that to my family and friends now and they're like, what are you talking about? You are so, you're such a Western Australian now.

Um, but so I, I, I did my first postdoc and then, um, this job came up over here at The Kids, formerly known as Telethon Kids Institute, um, back when it was called that, in childhood trauma. And I thought, you know what, that actually sounds so interesting. So I just took a leap and just kind of changed tack, and I hadn't done it before. Um, but I think I, I had other skills that I could bring to the table and I just learned, I just learned about it. So, yeah.

[00:10:19] Bronwyn: Could you just walk us through the emotions of that? Like, you moved interstate, I'm assuming you didn't have family here.

[00:10:26] Alix: Yeah, I kind of just took a bit of a leap of faith. Um, I didn't know anyone. It was really, it was a weird time as well. So this was right around COVID.

[00:10:36] Bronwyn: Oh, yes, that was a weird time.

[00:10:38] Alix: It was a weird time. So when I was doing my first postdoc in Sydney, uh, so I was at the University of Sydney, we were in lockdown and we had been in lockdown for several months and it was really quite difficult. And so I think one of the deciding factors for me moving over here was being able to work in an office, that's really important for me. I, I find it quite difficult to work just from home. I like a little bit of flexibility, but, um, having people around and I, I was finding, I, I was becoming, you know, I was feeling really low and I was becoming unmotivated in my job. So moving over here, the prospect of being able to just go about and not be in lockdown was really enticing.

But it was really scary. Like I had no idea what to expect and moving into a completely different field as well. I was like, you know what, if I am not cut out for it? Or like, what if I don't have the skills that they want or need on this project and it fails. So I think, you know, it was scary, but you'd have to, I don't know, I just had to do something brave.

[00:11:42] Bronwyn: Yeah. And do you feel like you are able to gain the skills on the job? Like is that, I guess, a skill that you have?

[00:11:49] Alix: Totally. I think, yeah, this is, um, maybe an ADHD thing, but like kind of thinking on your feet and like pivoting and being like, being able to adapt to situations that's, you know, I, I find that is a strength of mine. So I think that helped a lot in coming over here and just kind of like getting stuck into it and just trying. So, yeah, I did pick up a lot of skills and I am constantly doing that in research actually.

[00:12:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, I was thinking before this episode, what are some of the misconceptions that people have about research? And I think one misconception is that people think research is like this monolithic thing. It's like you can do research and it's just one skill, but there is so much to learn, right?

[00:12:31] Alix: Totally, totally. So I think when, when people think of research, like I certainly had this before, you think of someone in like a lab coat. In, you know, like playing with, yeah, bunsens burners and beakers and stuff. And certainly that is an aspect of research for some people in some disciplines. Um, not really psychology so much.

But yeah, it is so different for different people. Different research methods take you in in different directions and I think actually it is a job where there can be a lot of flexibility and a lot of new things and it can be exciting and take you in different directions every day.

[00:13:10] Bronwyn: What does a typical day look like for you in research? Like, what do you actually do?

[00:13:14] Alix: Oh gosh. Well, I will- there's a caveat to this, right, because I've been doing this for a little while now, so it does look a little bit different to when I first started, when I first kind of was doing my PhD and when I was doing my first postdoc, certainly.

I think early on, you work on one project or you know, you work on an RCT, like a big trial or something, and it's usually your, all of your focus goes into that one thing, which is really cool but as you kind of grow and you develop your career, you can branch out a little more, which I think is more exciting. Some people prefer the kind of single track, but I like to do lots of different things.

So now, gosh. Every day is different. So let's, let's take this week for example, I, I have research assistants and I have students that I manage or I supervise, and so, a lot of my time is catching up with them and just talking about where their projects are at and what they're doing. Um, we can talk about any of the challenges that they have or any of like the wins that they have in the week.

So for instance, we've got a new project starting that is it's an intervention for medical trauma and so we're working with young kids with type one diabetes. Um, very often the chronic stress can compound and it can turn into traumatic stress. Um, not for everybody, but for some kids. And so we've got this, this new intervention we're trialing, which is like a, a six week online CBT skills sort of intervention. And we're recruiting right now. Anyone who has experience in hears recruiting and it's, it's a little bit triggering. Um, it can, it can go well or it can be a real challenge.

[00:14:57] Bronwyn: Yeah. I find it's either really easy or it's like the the worst thing

[00:15:01] Alix: Yeah. And often I find that, I think it will be easy. I'm like, oh, community have told me that this is what they want. And then you set out and you're like, oh, okay, actually I didn't think about that. Oh, I didn't think about that. And you have all of these barriers that can pop up and you've just gotta, you've gotta try and think around it. You've gotta be flexible.

[00:15:18] Bronwyn: A lot of problem solving, thinking on your feet.

[00:15:19] Alix: That's it. Like you, you really have to be, you know, it's exciting, it can be stressful, but you really have to be quite flexible. So we, yeah, we've met this week and we've talked about recruitment and we're actually doing well at the moment, but it has been challenging over the last couple of weeks. We had to troubleshoot and think, okay, how do we overcome this? And um, the way that we did that was social media, advertising on social media works quite well.

So that's, you know, that's been one aspect, meeting with people and troubleshooting. What else do we do? We have like big team meetings where we talk about lots of different projects and we kind of get updates from everybody and where are certain projects at, and we can talk about challenges there and lots of different perspectives can come out, which is good.

I've got my own podcast, so I've been doing some, um, yeah, like science communication. So I've been doing interviews this week talking to, to researchers about their specific topics. So that podcast, by the way, is called Embracing the Mind if anyone's interested.

[00:16:17] Bronwyn: Yes. I was gonna ask you about it and so that we could promote it, and I'll definitely pop the links in the show notes so everybody can listen to it.

[00:16:23] Alix: Thank you so much. We're talking about, um, well mostly we're talking about women's health this season, but we're talking about grandparenting this week, which is something that I hadn't thought about previously, but it's actually super interesting and it was a really cool chat.

[00:16:38] Bronwyn: I'm gonna get the name wrong, but I know like Michael Car-Gregg is really into that.

[00:16:42] Alix: So we talked to Dr. David Cole. Now, so he is a, a very interesting researcher because when you ask him what he does, he says everything... and I think that actually it's a pretty accurate statement.

[00:16:56] Bronwyn: Okay!

[00:16:58] Alix: He comes in and starts talking about, placentas and he's got this, this big study on the different factors impacting placentas and how placentas impact maternal and infant health and mental health. And I was like, aren't we meant to be talking about grandparents here? And he is like, yeah, yeah, we do that too. We did a whole life course. Like that is an interesting job.

[00:17:20] Bronwyn: We do everything across the lifestyle from placenta to grandparents.

[00:17:23] Alix: Quite literally, and that will be my intro. Thank you very much.

[00:17:26] Bronwyn: Yeah. Wow, that is, yeah, that is a lot. I, I wanted to ask you, because I think this might be another misconception, I don't know. I, I think people might sometimes idealize research and be like, oh, I'm gonna be like solving the world's problems every day, sort of thing. And then at other times I think people can be like, research is pointless. Like it doesn't actually do anything.

I guess my question to you is like, do you feel like your work is meaningful or is everyday exciting or are there some things which are like basic research, which, which actually is important in itself, but doesn't necessarily have a real world impact. I know that was a big

[00:18:02] Alix: question.

That's a big question. That's a big question. So, so first of all, I think There, there is, there is a place, right, for, for research to have big impact? And I think that it can, right? So there it may be that not every day is impactful. I think it's like every, every other job, right? Not every day you're gonna be smashing goals and, you know, coming up with the best idea in the world. But there are times when you finish up a project and you put it out into the world and actually it does make a big impact.

That is the beauty of research, I think, because now that I'm working clinically, I can see that you, you work with an individual and you can make sort of like really not immediate, but you can make change that you see with your own eyes. You can help work with someone and they make change in their world, and you make impact on that individual, I guess we'll say micro level, right, with the person.

But research is macro. So in terms of if my work, one of the things that really grounds me and, and helps me move through hard times is thinking about the impact that I make with my participants. Because you, you can see that as well, you can, you sit down with a participant often they'll say, I, you know, I either, I wish that this had been done for me back when it was impacting me. So I thinking about, you know, type one diabetes, for example, when we were coming up with the idea, we were talking to community, which is a, a good practice in research. Make sure that you know what you're doing is actually what people want.

[00:19:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's also really enjoyable to talk to community. Yeah. I find that really rewarding in research. I love talking to people who, who get to be involved in research, but to take your point, it is important to ask the community is our research what you want?

[00:19:54] Alix: Totally. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, let's get out of that ivory tower and let's not pretend that, you know, we, we can be called experts, but really the people with lived experience are the experts, aren't they? So I think, when you talk to people and they say, you know, I wish that this, this research had been happening when I was being impacted, that's super rewarding and you can see how impactful your work is.

And then, when you make change in terms of, you know, maybe particularly in mental health, it's in clinical service or you come up with guidelines that help people do their work, or you are giving a platform to people, uh, to, to talk about their experiences and inform others, that is macro change and that is just, that's beautiful and that is like really impactful work.

[00:20:48] Bronwyn: So would you say that you feel like your work is quite meaningful?

[00:20:52] Alix: I do. And I think for me that's a value, like that's a really important thing for me to have in, in work is feeling like it, it is meaningful. Yeah. I don't know. Do you, would you'd have that surely?

[00:21:04] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, I do. And the reason why I ask it is because I've done a recent episode, which was looking at the factors that contribute to work satisfaction and feeling like it's personally meaningful is just kind of a general factor that contributes to that. If you are good at your work and you're getting well paid, but you don't feel like it's meaningful, then work satisfaction lowers.

[00:21:23] Alix: Yeah. And that, that, I can see that. I can totally see that you need to have those, you need to have meaning overall, but also those pockets, those little moments of like, this is why I'm doing it.

[00:21:35] Bronwyn: Okay, another aspect I wanted to ask you about was that some people say that research, it's quite slow moving. Is that true? And are there any other challenges involved in research that people might not expect?

[00:21:47] Alix: So yes, I think sometimes it can be a bit slow. I think it really depends, um, which is a bit of a cop out answer, but I don't wanna give a blanket like yes or no because it really, it depends on where you work. So I think, traditionally universities are a bit slower and it makes sense because oftentimes the academics that work in a university setting also have a teaching load. So it kind of takes away from research time. So whereas, you know, a place that I'm like, I'm working now like a, a medical research institute, they're typically a bit faster.

However, it's certainly not like a newsroom or something where, you know, you've gotta get stuff done every day and it's deadline, deadline, deadline. There are deadlines, but they're not, you know, it's not super duper hectic. And while you certainly have busy days where you have to get lots of work done, uh, you also have kind of lulls and you wait around for things. So, you know, another, uh, triggering word for researchers is ethics. I'm sorry.

[00:22:50] Bronwyn: It's so true.

[00:22:51] Alix: I know.

[00:22:52] Bronwyn: My heart rate just increased.

[00:22:53] Alix: Isn't that awful? But there's, you know, the, the, the reason is it's triggering is because it can take a really long time to get things through ethics. It's really important that we get things through ethics to make sure that we're doing everything in a safe way and that everybody involved in the research is, is kind of safe, and we're doing work that doesn't harm anyone. And it makes sense and it, and it's logical and scientifically sound, but it can take a really long time for things to get through ethics, typically, uh, months and months and months. And you redo things. So it can have slower aspects, yes.

[00:23:30] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I guess like maybe a point I wanted to make around that was that sometimes good research does take time. Like you don't wanna take shortcuts with, with research, you actually don't want to harm people. And it's like ethics can make your project better. It sucks that it's slow, but it's quite necessary and you don't wanna invest so much time and money in a research project only to look back and been like, oh, we should have involved consumers, we should have involved people lived experience. Because even though those things take time, they're so vital to research.

[00:23:57] Alix: Yeah, that's a really excellent point. There is, there is kind of the temptation to get things done quickly, to get lots of outputs, right, because there's a lot of pressure that is... I think that's actually one of the challenges I think is, is, is the, the expectation on research is to produce lots, but that is the absolute like that, I think the priority is that you do things in a, in a safe and well thought out way because it would be awful to get through a project and and have huge regrets. Of course, you will always think of ways to do things better, but the big stuff we really do need to think about and do things in the best way.

[00:24:38] Bronwyn: Yeah. Could you tell us a bit more about this output pressure? Is that something that weighs on you?

[00:24:43] Alix: Oh, totally. I think there isn't a researcher working that doesn't feel that pressure. Unless they're, you know, maybe doing it for fun. But if you- can't, can't relate, I do- I need to pay the bills. Um, so I think, you know, the way that research is set up is that often people are working through grants that are funded by, you know, a funding body. And so first of all, you need to get a grant. To get a grant, you need to have a track record. So for those not in research, they probably haven't heard this term before... a track record is like your CV essentially, and so on it, you need to have lots of stuff like papers or conference presentations and, you know, maybe awards and like other things like that. So there's, there's so much thinking around this for researchers. You know, how, how can I build up my CV so that I look competitive so I can get a grant, so I can get paid and have a job.

[00:25:40] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:25:40] Alix: It's really quite stressful.

[00:25:42] Bronwyn: Yeah, and maybe to point out as well that it's like, you know, usually in research projects there's not a budget to fund you to apply for awards or to go sit on committees or to go do these activities. It's like often these activities are done in your own time, right?

[00:25:56] Alix: Exactly. There's a lot of work. So this is, this is something that I have had to be, I've had to learn and I've had to be really careful with my boundaries, especially now working clinically because, Yeah, burnout is a really big risk factor for working in research because, you are totally right, you have to get your work done within the grant. You have to get, you know, the, the research done... but as a researcher, you also need to, you know, review journal articles and you need to sit on committees and you need to put in a lot of extra work to make yourself look attractive to, to funding bodies so that you can continue to work. And often, as well, I think you are working on a grant, say it's two years... for researchers. You have to think in that second year, what's the next thing you have to think about? Because very often you'll have short term contracts. It's not, there's no permanency. So what is the next thing that I need to get in lines that I have a job after this.

[00:26:59] Bronwyn: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That's, that's really stressful.

[00:27:02] Alix: It's, it is, and, and I don't wanna scare people off, right. Because it is a cool job. Um, and there are lots of jobs where there's short term contracts and, yeah, you, you can find a balance. So I very much, I don't work on weekends and I don't work outside of hours and I don't have email on my phone.

[00:27:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, I don't have it on my phone either. I find that's really good. But I tell you the boundary thing that I'm currently struggling with with research is that, I don't know if this is the same for you, but for me, I find that there's some tasks and research, which I just call like low cognitive load tasks. It's like data entry, or you can look at like an article and listen to music at the same time. You can kind of do these low cognitive tasks. And I find it really tempting, like for me, I'm like, oh, I just need to review this transcript. I could do that at home while like watching the tv and I have to be like, to myself, no, don't work out of hours. So I find that really difficult. And then I'm like, oh, but then I'll put this low cog task like during work hours, and I'm like, it doesn't seem worth it.

[00:28:04] Alix: Oh my God. Are we the same person? I do the same thing. Well, I'm trying really hard not to do that now.

[00:28:11] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too.

[00:28:11] Alix: Like it's actually a conscious effort, I'm like, oh, but then I'll free up my day tomorrow. I can do something. You know, I'll spend the whole day writing this paper. No, but that, that sort of stuff, I find it, it's really important to have those really strong boundaries because it creeps right? It creeps in. Yeah. Yeah. And your boundaries blur and, and that sort of thing. Like, you know, I, I actually started this year checking email on the train and I was like, wait, what am I doing? Don't do that. No. So, yeah, I think while it's super tempting I have to protect my time and I have to protect, you know, non-work time. And for some people they, they really enjoy research, they enjoy working and whatever, you know, you can do you, but for me it doesn't work. I that, that leads to burnout and I can't do it, so...

[00:28:58] Bronwyn: Mm. Yeah. The way that I've tried to bargain with myself, and I wonder if you do the same thing, is like, for you, it would be like, if I work on this, then I don't have time for sourdough. And then for me, I'm like, if I work on this, then I don't have time for my other like 10 hobbies.

[00:29:12] Alix: That, that's really helpful actually. Or I won't have the energy to do it and-

[00:29:16] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. And then the sourdough doesn't get made and then we don't have sourdough.

[00:29:20] Alix: It'll die. My starter will die. And that's actually like a huge, no, I can't do that. I know. It's a living thing. You have to feed it everyday.

[00:29:28] Bronwyn: Yeah. Wow. That, yeah, that really strikes home.

[00:29:31] Alix: Yeah, yeah. You don't wanna kill the sta- the sourdough starter, so you can't look at that spreadsheet. Don't do it.

[00:29:38] Bronwyn: Don't do it. Okay. Good advice. Okay, so moving on. You're a provisional psychologist, and so you're doing your clinical studies after having started research and then you went back to it. Could you tell us what prompted you to go into clinical studies? I'm really interested.

[00:29:54] Alix: Well, I think it was less of something prompting me and more of when is it gonna be the right time? Because as I said, the first year of psych, I was like, I'm gonna be a therapist. That never went away for me. So I always was super interested in clinical work and like I said, one of my favorite parts of research is working with participants. I like face-to-face. I like meeting new people. So I, I've always been very interested in human connection, working with others and, and helping, that's one of my, my values as well is making a difference in that way. So, of course, that's always been a pull for me. And so I was just, I was kind of just trying to find the right time and then realize that actually the right time is non-existent, so I just have to do it. I, I'm sure everyone who's done the, the masters can empathize that actually there's, yeah, there's no such thing as the right time. It's always gonna be a little bit stressful, so yeah, I just had to do it. Yeah.

[00:30:55] Bronwyn: And how have you found it? How have you found the course? I guess coming to a, from a research background coming into it, how's it been for you?

[00:31:03] Alix: I tell you one of the, the really good things about having done a PhD is that through that process and through working in research, I have actually let go of a bit of perfectionism.

[00:31:16] Bronwyn: Oh wow.

[00:31:17] Alix: Yeah. So I had to. I think, if I had kept going with the perfectionism, I think I would've burnt out very quickly. Uh, and, and anyone who has submitted a paper to a journal, uh, knows that the review process can really tear you down.

[00:31:34] Bronwyn: Brutal. Yes.

[00:31:35] Alix: It's really brutal. So we have like this in joke, in, in research that reviewer two...

[00:31:40] Bronwyn: Oh, reviewer two.

[00:31:41] Alix: Oh, awful, awful, awful. Um, they can be really scathing and you will never, you'll never write a paper. That is the perfect thing for anybody, uh, for everybody, I mean, not for anybody, but you know, you're not gonna please everyone with your research. So-

[00:31:58] Bronwyn: Yeah. Review reviewer two'd be like, why didn't you write the paper that I wanted you to write?

[00:32:02] Alix: Exactly, and, and you can bet that you've cited them somewhere.

[00:32:07] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:32:08] Alix: And they're like, well, we did it this way. Um, yes. So anyway, I digress. So I think having done the PhD gave me, yeah, I, I guess maybe thicker skin, which has really helped with, with the masters because now, you know, I have assignments. I'm like, it just has to be done. It just, it doesn't have to be the best thing in the world. And, you know, what I submit as long as I pass and I, uh, get through. Really the important thing for me is learning how to do therapy.

[00:32:37] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:32:38] Alix: I think I've seen a lot of my, like fellow students who, um, stress a lot. I mean, I, I stress of course, but stressing a lot about the assignments and stuff, and so I think I have less of that stress because of my research work.

[00:32:54] Bronwyn: You've just unlocked a memory in me because I was exactly the same. So I did my masters back in 2017, which is why the memory has been unlocked. But that was just as I was finishing up my PhD and during my PhD, literally-

[00:33:07] Alix: Yuck.

[00:33:07] Bronwyn: -I would get, I, I would submit a chapter to my supervisor and I would, he, he did the style of pen and paper feedback. So literally I'd give him a chapter and it would be, red crosses everywhere. Why have you done this? Do this, do this.

[00:33:22] Alix: That was in 2017?

[00:33:24] Bronwyn: Yeah, 2017. Yeah, and I actually took a photo of my stack of feedback at the end of my PhD and it measured about 30 centimeters high with my feedback. But anyway, the point is is that I was very used to quite direct and mult- multiple feedback at once, and I would rewrite whole chapters, and it was excellent because I developed my skills. So it was excellent in terms of skill development, but you're right, it's like you do actually develop quite a thick skin, and that was the approach that I took during my master's as well. I was like, as long as I'm learning the skills, I don't care if I get a 70 because I, I've learned the skill here and that's the main thing that I want here.

[00:34:02] Alix: Yeah. That's totally it. And it's super duper helpful I think in, in clinical work. Yeah. Yep.

[00:34:07] Bronwyn: Yeah. Mm. Because I'm like, I could get, like, if I spent 10 more hours on this, I could get a 95 and I could like rejig my sentences and stuff, but I've learned the skills and I've, I'm competent in this.

[00:34:17] Alix: Yeah, That is the important thing. This is a hurdle to get you to the next point. Yeah.

[00:34:21] Bronwyn: Exactly. So thanks for sharing that. Okay. And I wanted to know as well, has your background in research influenced the areas you're interested in clinically?

[00:34:30] Alix: Mm, yes, definitely. I... now, like I, I have to caveat, I'm still on prac, right? Like I'm still very early days.

[00:34:39] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:34:40] Alix: But I definitely have noticed that I'm one of the, the people in our cohort that really leans into complexity. And I have worked with clients who have experienced trauma and it, it doesn't scare me because I, I have done so much work in it now in research and I feel quite confident going in it and even like providing things like psychoeducation, like I think that has been so helpful, having that kind of knowledge base and then going into a session with a client and being like, oh, well I think actually this might be happening because of this, this, this, this. And it makes total sense.

And I think by having that knowledge, it's kind of steered me in direction. So, yeah, I think so. I think so. Um, but in saying that, I think, the curiosity that has been fostered by research has influenced my clinical work more, I think. It's, yeah, it, it is actually a really valuable skill. I think it goes both ways, but having the curiosity and the, the research mind and trying to figure out what is going on for this person sitting in front of me can be super helpful.

[00:35:47] Bronwyn: Is there any other skills from research you feel like you're bringing in or have you noticed differences between yourself and others who maybe don't have a, a large research background?

[00:35:57] Alix: Oh, I think that anyone who has more of a research background going into clinical work, you've got really good assessment skills.

[00:36:03] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:36:04] Alix: You've got, especially if you've worked on projects where you do assessments, right? So like I- in my phD and also I did some research assistant work. We were doing lots of, um, like IQ assessments and lots of- yeah, it was really cool. It was, it was a really great opportunity and I was trained through it all, which is really cool. Um, but that has helped so much, right? Because in the, in the training right, you, you have to do, you have to do these, these IQ assessments. You have to do like a, a, a, like a WAIS, so the Weschler um, battery and so I just I had so much knowledge behind me, which was so good, and, and report writing.

[00:36:46] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:36:47] Alix: Oh my gosh, that was so helpful. That is a huge learning curve for most people and it still was for me working with like different clientele, but it was, yeah, it was so good to have that knowledge behind me and it kind of reduced the stress a lot for me last year in particular, yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:04] Bronwyn: I completely agree. I do find having the research background and then translating that into report writing, um, you're able to put at the top of your report, like, this is our question, our assessment question, and then everything else flows from there. These are our hypotheses. This is what we wanted to test, this is how we're gonna answer it. Um, these are the things that are left outstanding. These are the implications. It's like, I guess from research, it's like you're able to logically structure things and have things that all are justifiable.

[00:37:31] Alix: Yeah, that's, that's a really good point actually. I think having strong justification, that definitely comes from your research. Um, or it's strengthened by research, right? Like you've gotta, you've gotta understand and you've gotta kind of back up what you're saying. And so when you're writing reports, that's so helpful.

[00:37:49] Bronwyn: I'm so glad that that's been a transferable skill for you. Okay, another question about your clinical and research combination. Do you think you'll change what you research or how you research as a result of your clinical studies?

[00:38:02] Alix: Uh, yes, I do. I already have. I already have. Uh, so I think, I mean, going into the, the clinical masters, I already had this, like, this perception of, of how helpful it is to have even just anecdotal clinical work behind you. Because I work with clinician researchers, so you know the people that do both. And they, they are very good researchers and they come up with these questions and I'm like, I haven't even, I've never thought of that. But they sit with people and they hear their stories and it, and it kind of gets stored inside of your brain and it helps you come up with these research questions.

And so that has already come out in, you know, when I'm developing new interventions for, for young people, the stuff that I talk about or that, that, that clients bring up with me... It, it kind of just, it goes in and I, and it comes up later when I'm thinking of, of what we're gonna do in research. And I'm like, oh, but what about this problem? You know, I know that this is a problem for some people. Let's go see, let's go talk to community and see if I'm right here. If, if this is indeed an issue. Yes it is, okay, how are we gonna tackle that? So it's, it can really inform your knowledge base and help steer the research in directions that are more applicable to your participants, I think.

[00:39:26] Bronwyn: Interesting. Anything else?

[00:39:28] Alix: Oh gosh. What else does, I guess, you know, actually one thing is that you are really good at keeping cool and troubleshooting and being flexible when you're work-, when you're working as a clinician. What I've noticed that you have to do that, you kind of just have to do that, and so I think that can be translated back into research work.

[00:39:51] Bronwyn: It's so true.

[00:39:52] Alix: Yeah, yeah.

[00:39:53] Bronwyn: Like you learn in so many situations. We're just thinking of like a basic situation in clinical work is sometimes helping people find your location, um, of where you are. And I've had so many instances where I've literally walked out the building, I've been like, I'm here. I can see you.

[00:40:05] Alix: Yep.

[00:40:06] Bronwyn: Come here, Come closer. And then like people be like, I can't find a car park. Um, and it's just like, uh, you know, just, just stuff like that. It's like you gotta think on your feet really quickly.

[00:40:16] Alix: Yeah. Yeah. And you keep your cool.

[00:40:19] Bronwyn: Yeah. And you keep your cool.

[00:40:20] Alix: You have to.

[00:40:22] Bronwyn: Yeah. You have to, you really do. You just have to be the emotionally regulated person.

[00:40:26] Alix: Totally. Yeah.

[00:40:27] Bronwyn: Okay, so one of the reasons I wanted to do this episode was because I reckon that there are some listeners who are like, you know what, maybe I'd like to get into research. And so I'm wondering, what advice would you give to early career mental health professionals, people who wanna dip their toes in the water of research, what would you say to them?

[00:40:45] Alix: I think that's a really, that's, that's a good way to put it. Dip your toes in if you're not sure. Right. You don't have to jump in straight away and do a PhD. There are many, many opportunities to, to, you know, you can, if you have the means, you could volunteer, but also maybe like a research assistant gig or something. Or, you know, helping, uh, a research team on a project in, you know, we always need help with data collection. We always need help with things like recruitment and writing ethics. So there are things that you can do and you can see if you like it.

I would also say give it time and if you don't like the first sort of aspect of research or the first project that you work on, you know, like we said at the start of of this chat, it could be the people you work with. Maybe you gel with a different team. So I would say, give it a try. If you don't like the first one, but you still think that it could be for you, try a different different project, a different place, different topic. Um, just give it a go. And I think there's no such thing as like not being smart enough, right? I had that- this concept in my mind that I wasn't smart enough to do research. I don't think that's a thing,

[00:42:00] Bronwyn: Good.

[00:42:01] Alix: I think you can bring value to research in many different ways. Um, so you don't have to be like really good at stats or whatever, you know, just give it a go.

[00:42:12] Bronwyn: What characteristics do you think are valuable in, in research?

[00:42:17] Alix: I think flexibility, right? We've talked about that, that you have to be flexible, you've gotta pivot. Research very rarely goes exactly how you want it to. So you've gotta be able to just kind of, you know, think on your feet and be flexible. You do have to be persistent as well, because sometimes it is a long haul. A PhD is like three or four years. So, and that's if you're doing it full-time, even longer if you're doing it part-time. So you have to be persistent and curious as well.

One thing as well, I think that I found really helpful and has pushed me along in my career as being a people person and having a sense of like collaborativeness with others, you know, I would not have gotten half of the stuff done that I have if I had not worked with people.

[00:43:04] Bronwyn: Yep. So true. Yeah, I find that collaborativeness is so important. I remember learning a lesson like really early in my career about collaboration. I had a collaborator who kept on nitpicking my work. That's how it felt to me. And then I brought it to someone who was a senior researcher, and they're like, Bron, at least they're talking to you like, you can work with this. Um, it's better to have a collaborator who's willing to engage with you. And I was like, oh, thank you. That's a really good lesson to learn. It's good to collaborate with people.

[00:43:30] Alix: That's a, that's a really nice, like that is a reframe. There is that, it's really-

[00:43:34] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's a reframe as anything.

[00:43:37] Alix: That's really, I'm gonna try and squirrel that away for future use. Yeah.

[00:43:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. But I do find that like, being nice and being collaborative goes a long way in research and it's like, we really wanna get everybody and trying not to be protected to the exclusion of collaboration.

[00:43:51] Alix: Totally.

[00:43:52] Bronwyn: Okay. And what do you hope listeners will take away from our conversation today? Anything you wanna leave them with?

[00:43:58] Alix: Ooh. I think if you're interested, be brave and take a step and try it out.

[00:44:06] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:44:06] Alix: And I think as well, research and clinical work. So if you're listening to this podcast, you're obviously interested in clinical work as well... they, they work really well together. They're not mutually exclusive, right? Like they compliment each other and make you, I guess, like better in both. So it can be working in, in both areas can be a really meaningful and interesting and fun career. Yeah.

[00:44:36] Bronwyn: awesome. Yeah, and I think, um, we did a really good job today, or you did a really good job today of highlighting, look, there's some challenges, but the challenges are pretty much like every other workplace. Like you're gonna have stressful situations, you're gonna have things that are slow, that, that might not progress as fast, but research is incredibly meaningful and you can feel like you're doing such diverse work. No day is ever the same, and it can be really enjoyable.

[00:44:59] Alix: Yes. Totally. Yes. Well, I'm glad that message came across 'cause that's exactly right.

[00:45:04] Bronwyn: Yeah. Good. Yeah, that's the sense that I got. Yeah, you were totally vibing that.

[00:45:08] Alix: Yeah. Good, good, good.

[00:45:10] Bronwyn: And so if listeners wanna learn more about you, maybe Embrace podcast, um, or get in touch, uh, what can they find... where can they find it?

[00:45:18] Alix: So, yes. Yes. The, the podcast is on, on Spotify and Apple and all of the places where you get podcasts, so Embracing the Mind. But you can also, you can look me up on the, The Kids Research Institute Australia. So I'm on there. There's a bunch of other researchers, hundreds of researchers. There's so many. Um, but if you look me up, um, or my LinkedIn, I don't do, I don't do the other socials, but LinkedIn, you can find me. Yeah.

[00:45:42] Bronwyn: Yep. Um, I'll definitely pop those links in the show notes and yeah, I would highly recommend listeners that you give Alix's podcast a go. I've looked at it myself and it's got lots of really interesting topics and I know you've got some good conversations coming up as well. Like you said, the Placenta to grandparent guy and other people.

[00:45:58] Alix: Wild. Absolutely wild stuff. Um, I never know what's gonna happen, but usually it's good.

[00:46:05] Bronwyn: Yeah. No. Awesome. Well, Alix, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been such a pleasure to have you and to speak with you.

[00:46:11] Alix: Thank you for having me. It's been so fun.

[00:46:13] Bronwyn: Great. And listeners, if you enjoyed this conversation, please consider supporting Mental Work. Follow the podcast, leave a rating or review, and share it with a fellow mental health worker. It really does help get the podcast out there and into people's ears.

That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.