Transference and countertransference (with Claire Trevitt)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about transference and countertransference.

It's going to be a kind of 101 conversation. And can I just say, I've been so excited to record this conversation. I've been wanting to do it honestly for about two years. I've been thinking about this episode, wanting to record it with somebody. I was waiting for somebody to come along and a guest I could do it with. Not to put too much pressure on the guest, but it's gonna be really good.

We're going to be talking about this complex and often challenging phenomena that every psychologist will encounter. Yet it can be really tricky to navigate, especially for those early in their careers. In this episode, we're going to demystify what is transference, what is countertransference, discuss their impact on therapy, and offer some practical strategies for managing them effectively.

Here to help us out today as our guest, Claire Trevitt. Hi, Claire.

[00:01:03] Claire: Hi, Bron.

[00:01:05] Bronwyn: Claire is a return guest. I'm so delighted to have her back on today. Claire, could you please tell listeners who you are?

[00:01:11] Claire: Thank you. I am a registered psychologist and a board approved supervisor, and I really do split my week into supporting provisional and early career psychologists and seeing clients. I'm also the co-host of the Between Two Psychs podcast, and I'm also very excited to be launching my very own podcast called The Growing Therapist, which I'm hoping will commence in September.

[00:01:38] Bronwyn: Oh, that's so wonderful. I'm so delighted to hear about this new podcast, and I love the name. I think Growing Therapist is also what you call your supervision business side of things.

[00:01:47] Claire: It is, I think, because we're all learning and we're all growing and it just doesn't stop however much experience we have.

[00:01:53] Bronwyn: For our listeners who might be completely new to the idea of transference and countertransference, can you please explain what they are? And then we'll talk about why it's important for early career clinicians to understand.

[00:02:05] Claire: Sure. I think transference and countertransference probably occur more often than we realize. Um, it's probably something that comes up so frequently. Sometimes we'll pick it up and sometimes we won't. But basically in a nutshell, transference is when something from the clients earlier or previous experience begins to show up in the therapy room, and often is either projected onto or transferred if you like, onto the therapist. And so they begin to respond to the therapist as though they may be somebody from earlier in their life. It doesn't necessarily have to be earlier in their life, but somebody else that is in their life and reflects a different experience that's not going on in the therapy room. So it reflects something that's going on outside of the therapy room.

[00:03:01] Bronwyn: So I guess a easy example is like, the therapist says something in a slightly frustrated tone, and then the client reacts to that as though it is their mother saying that. So they're not reacting to the therapist specifically, they're reacting to somebody else in their life. Is that a okay example?

[00:03:21] Claire: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So if the therapist says something, it would probably be more likely that the therapist said something that might be interpreted as frustrated, and so therefore, because if the therapist was frustrated, then that the client might pick up on that, and that might actually be quite fair. But if the therapist was not frustrated but had said something that was interpreted in that way, then the client may be projecting that onto the therapist, and it may not necessarily be a reflection of what's happening in therapy, but something that's, um, happening outside of the therapy room.

[00:04:01] Bronwyn: That makes so much sense. So maybe that leads on to why is it important to understand transference then?

[00:04:07] Claire: It is so important to understand because it's happening all the time... because clients are going to be bringing in their previous experience into the room, we all do this all of the time. But I think it's so important because it helps us learn more about the client and it gives us opportunities that we might not have otherwise, because normally transference would be projected quite unconsciously. So it wouldn't be something that the client is intending to do, otherwise they would say, you sound just like so and so in my life.

[00:04:42] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:04:43] Claire: But sometimes they might respond to something and we think, oh my gosh, that's totally out of character, or it's not what I meant. And actually it's maybe not even the way that I said that, we're obviously trying not to convey anything that's going to give the client the impression that maybe we are frustrated or finding things difficult. We're wanting to convey quite a calm, um, environment in which they can explore what's happening for them.

So it is important because it gives us information that we might not have otherwise, so we can explore that and learn more. So the therapist can understand more, but the client can also understand more about themselves too. And if we don't pick up on that, then we may actually misinterpret that. We may think the client is being obstructive or difficult or rude when actually it's a reaction that is in keeping with something else, and that makes sense in the context of their life.

[00:05:46] Bronwyn: So we may misinterpret the client's behavior and responses and, say, apply these these negative labels, like that they're being obstructive, or rude when in fact if we are aware of the transference reaction, we can draw different conclusions and respond in a different way that might be more helpful?

[00:06:05] Claire: Absolutely. Yeah. Because if the client is upset by something and that's coming from elsewhere, and that's coming from their other experiences where maybe they have justifiably been upset, somebody has let them down, and then it feels as though the therapist is doing the same thing... That's not them being difficult, but that's them expressing, um, it's potentially actually a healthy reaction because it's expressing, um, a displeasure around something. Um, and it might be them being more assertive around something that's important for them to do. And if we misinterpret that, then we don't empower the client to be able to speak up for themselves.

[00:06:48] Bronwyn: It's so important. And let's just move on to countertransference. Could you tell us what countertransference is and then we'll go onto why that's important.

[00:06:56] Claire: Sure. So counter transference is when the therapist has a response to something that the client says, and there can be subjective and objective countertransference.

So objective countertransference would be something along the lines of, this client is creating a reaction in me, and it's a reaction, that I don't normally have with clients, and I'm wondering if it's telling me something about how the client presents outside. So maybe I'm struggling to feel understood by this client.... Maybe others feel like that too. And so that's important information for us to have, and it's very much around us trying to understand the client's experience through our own feelings.

[00:07:43] Bronwyn: I remember one of the earliest countertransference reactions I was trying to understand as a new therapist was when I didn't understand the client. And then one of the things I would work out sometimes with clients is that they talk in a vague way to everyone. Rather than be specific about things, and that's why I was finding it difficult to follow along and understand, and it just brought a whole new level of clarity to me, um, about this client. So I guess that's why I feel like it's important because I was like, oh, is everybody else feeling this way? And it's like, oh, I think they are.

[00:08:17] Claire: Yeah, and it can really help explain maybe why that client might struggle interpersonally, because you are not the only person experiencing that, other people are likely experiencing the same thing, yeah. And so, yeah, it, it's really helpful and we can use that therapeutically because then we can understand maybe some of these challenges that the client's experiencing and give us that information without us necessarily asking for that. 'Cause a client may not be able to give us that it's, it's happening, but they can't articulate that.

[00:08:49] Bronwyn: So that's objective countertransference. What's the subjective one?

[00:08:52] Claire: So the subjective counter transference, which is just as important to identify but is a little different, is when the therapist might get triggered by something that is happening in the therapy room that actually relates to the therapist's own life. So the client may express frustration that may or may not be valid, but the, the therapist might really struggle with these strong emotions. And then it can bring around feelings of inadequacy, loss of confidence, um, or even bring up feelings like anger and frustration, which may not necessarily be associated with what the client's experiencing, but more about our own experiences.

So in that situation, it's really important that we can identify our own responses and own them as ours, because if we don't own those as ours and we project those back onto the client, then we are going to get into a, a reenactment of our own situation in the therapy room, and that's gonna be really counterproductive to the therapy.

[00:10:05] Bronwyn: I am trying to think of an example, and maybe I'll just give an example of, say, over identification, which is where a client may describe the story to you and you are thinking, no, maybe not even consciously, but you're like, I've been in that exact situation. Here's how I handled it. Here's where the client needs to go. And I guess the risk in that is that you may ignore this individual person in front of you and their own experiences and where they wanna go and how they wanna do it.

[00:10:29] Claire: Yeah, exactly. And then we get into, um, advice giving, and we are looking at it from our own perspective, but we are not actually considering, as you said, what the client actually might need in this situation. Um, and it can sometimes be quite destructive as well because, you know, we, we find ourselves in a situation where there's kind of a bit of a battle going on in the therapy room because the client's struggling to feel understood, and we are coming at it from our perspective, and really it's our own stuff that's spilling into the room.

[00:11:02] Bronwyn: I'm just gonna share a little funny story before we go into how it's important, um, and that's when, when I was learning about transference and countertransference a few years ago, I didn't know much about it in my training, I wasn't, I wasn't exposed to it. It wasn't discussed with me. So I landed a bit later down the track and I was really into it. I was really into learning more about it, and I came to a supervision session with my supervisor, very pleased with myself because I developed a whole risk protocol for myself, for countertransference. And this was before ChatGPT, and I'd written out a little list for myself of like how countertransference could show up. And it's like I might be overly positive towards a client. I might be overly negative.

And I come to the supervision session, I'm like. Here's my great list. And she's like, and she's like, she was lovely, lovely supervisor, but she was like, Bronwyn, it's not a risk like this is happening all the time. And thinking about it like a risk is not quite the right approach. And I was like, ah, I learned a lot that day. She's like, it's happening all the time.

And I just wanted to emphasize that because I think that might be a common, um, I guess mistake that that early career psychs might put ourselves in. We might be like, oh, I'm at risk of doing this when it's like it's happening all the time.

[00:12:14] Claire: That is such an important point and I'm so glad you said that because yes, it is happening all the time and it's not necessarily something that we are trying to prevent, but it's something that we wanna be aware of so that we manage it really well when it does happen, which it will, it will happen, yeah.

[00:12:31] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, yeah, I guess just an important thing. And how did you come to be aware of transference and countertransference? I know in the previous episode we talked a bit about your training, but just for listeners who didn't hear that episode, what's your interest and background in this?

[00:12:46] Claire: Yeah, sure. So I did a training in psychodynamic therapy quite early into my career. So I was a registered psychologist, but I was probably about two or three years in, and I did some training in psychodynamic therapy, which does lean quite heavily on transference and counter transference. And a lot of the work is around working in the transference is, is seeing, well, what is the client bringing in that is reflective of their experience and how can we really bring light to that?

And as part of that training, um, well separate to that training, but along at the same time as the training, I also had my own therapy, which was very transference focused. And so I was lucky to have the experience of that in action and seeing my own transference in therapy and how that played out because that was obviously, named to me, because I, I'm a therapist, it was named to me as, as transference, and I was able to identify what that was. It was important to be able to have that, that, um, language being a therapist and to see when, when it was happening for me.

But also the supervision that I had was very focused on counter transference, um, because as you say, it always, it's always gonna happen. So it was always there. And so for, I mean, I had quite a long therapy and I had the same supervisor probably about five, six years weekly... So I had this twice weekly therapy and I had weekly supervision. I also had group supervision and some training. So very much focused in that psychodynamic model. So it really became something that I began to just tune into quite automatically and, and look for. Um, and so yeah, that was, that was a really good experience because it's something now that I, I automatically, unconsciously really, um, do kind of look out for and notice

[00:14:49] Bronwyn: What was the impact of doing that training? I'm just curious, like pre you doing that training, did you feel like it made a major impact on how you conducted therapy and how you saw processes?

[00:15:01] Claire: It was, it was completely life changing. It was completely life changing. I began to know myself so much better. Um, it's a really strange thing to say that I, I just didn't know myself that well before, and I also began to see how important it was that I had done my own work in the therapy room because I was able to see how, with my own experience. I could easily have got into reenactments with clients with my own counter transference, and it was really helpful for me not to do that.

[00:15:36] Bronwyn: It sounds yet hugely impactful and I'm glad that we can draw on your experiences today in this podcast. I thought we could talk a bit more about transference. Is that okay?

[00:15:45] Claire: Sure.

[00:15:46] Bronwyn: So what are some of the typical signs, I guess it's like how long is a piece of string when we talk about typical, but what are the things that you observe, um, or people bring up that indicate a client is experiencing transference?

[00:15:59] Claire: I think transference is reflective usually of the client's experience or a past experience, rather than what is actually happening right now in the therapy room. And the two can co-occur, but when I think about noticing countertransference, it's about that situation feels more reflective of something else and the, or the past, for that client than what... than the context of the conversation. So the way I might have said something, the question that I might have asked, it feels as though it's not taken in the context of just us in the present, but there's something else coming into that.

[00:16:42] Bronwyn: Maybe the feeling you might notice in yourself if something feels a bit off or odd here.

[00:16:47] Claire: Yeah, it doesn't fit. It's not congruent with the conversation. It's like something else has been brought into this that begins to add another layer or dimension to things.

[00:16:59] Bronwyn: Yeah, 'cause I was gonna ask next, like how do we differentiate between transference that's that's transference, or is it a client's genuine feelings towards them? And I guess one example I'm thinking of is potentially like clients who are, who are really, are positive about you. And I've, I've experienced this and it feels like an over, over friendliness, that's not our relationship. Um, and how do I know if that's just them being genuinely friendly or if there's some transference here?

[00:17:29] Claire: Yeah, that's a really, really good example. Um, because sometimes it's hard to tell.

[00:17:35] Bronwyn: It is.

[00:17:36] Claire: It is, it's when, when there would be any kind of idealizing or it might feel maybe that some sort of boundaries were beginning to be breached or that, yeah, it just didn't feel maybe genuine in some way? You know, like it was that when clients begin to idealize, um, often it doesn't kind of, as you say, warrant the level of connection that you have, it feels like, you know, it's been elevated somewhat, um, and not, doesn't necessarily reflect the reality. But at the same time, a client might just have a good, strong connection with a therapist.

[00:18:19] Bronwyn: Like, I haven't felt heard before. And this is the first space where I've felt that, and this is a refreshing experience for me.

[00:18:25] Claire: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it could be that they've got a lot in common with a therapist as well. It could be that they're a similar age, they might dress in a similar way. They might, you know, the person might like the therapist's style. Um, they might have a similar sense of humor, so there could be some common factors there that would also really create quite a strong therapeutic relationship.

And so I'd be really hesitant to call everything transference, when actually there could just be some really genuine factors there that would, you know, contribute to that strong relationship. I think it would only be where it became either useful to explore further and so you're wanting to explain, explore something maybe underlying and, or it feels like there's something more to it.

[00:19:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, because I was thinking like, is it, you sort of bring this up, let's go with the example of idealization, but like, you know, I could almost imagine an unkind conversation with a client, which would be like, "You like me a lot? I think that's a problem". You know, not directly in those words, but, but you know the gist of that.

[00:19:35] Claire: Yeah, and I, and it's not necessarily problematic. Even some level of transference might not be problematic as well. You know, a positive transference can, can sometimes be quite healthy as long as it is not going to, I guess, interfere with either the client's sort of level of functioning or be kind of too distressing for the client. We really wanna make sure that we're not sort of making more of something that then there is.

[00:20:05] Bronwyn: Exactly.

[00:20:07] Claire: I mean, we could, we could read something into everything, particularly when we're doing sort of a more analytic style of therapy. We could read something into everything and, and sometimes a spades a spade, and we just need to call it that. And sometimes it's just not problematic. So I think I'd be really wanting to focus on what are the key issues here? What's gonna be most the most helpful use of the time? Because psychodynamic therapy or psychoanalytic therapy was previously very long-term, um, multiple sessions per week, there was lots and lots of time for the therapist to explore and, you know, allow time for things to emerge. We don't have that luxury at the moment with our time limited therapy. I mean, even if a client can afford to pay, it's very unlikely that they would come more than once a week. And so I think we do need to be quite selective about what we do bring up and make sure that it's gonna be in the service of the client and it's gonna build a level of insight that's gonna be helpful.

[00:21:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. I think echoing what you've said maybe important for the listener to take away is that not all transference is bad, so it doesn't always need to be brought up. So I guess if people are thinking transference bad, I guess don't have that association.

[00:21:28] Claire: No, and sometimes there might be transference that is maybe... we are not quite sure about it or it feels too much or too big or potentially shaming to bring it up for the clients. So I think we need to be quite careful in our timing as well, because the idea is to bring awareness and bring insight and to be helpful, and I think we need to determine whether or not is something is helpful or not to bring into the room.

[00:21:53] Bronwyn: And I think even throughout this conversation, I'm really appreciating the value of supervision in being able to, I guess, talk about these reactions and what's happening in therapy. Because I think even us discussing it, it's like, oh, well it could be this or it could be that, and it seems like supervision is a great space to nut out those potential differences and work out a plan of action.

[00:22:15] Claire: Yeah, I think so. I mean, this is why I think we need supervision throughout our life, um, you know, throughout our career, it doesn't stop. And I think that I would always be wanting to see somebody as a supervisor that has more experience ideally than I do in a particular area when I'm seeking supervision. And so, and counter transference is probably one of the, the biggest areas that I seek supervision in. I, I generally am thinking, I've got a response to this client, and this is what needs to be explored for me. And so I bring it up a lot in my own supervision because it's happening all the time, and it's really helpful for me to be able to address that.

[00:22:54] Bronwyn: And sometimes it's hard to say the forest from the trees when you've got your own perspective. I remember talking with my own supervisor about gifts, and he has a psychodynamic lens. And I was like, to him it's a gift. Like a gift is a gift. And he was like, Bronwyn, it's in the context of therapy. And I was like, grr, I think you're right in this case. Um, so it's so helpful to get another person's perspective.

[00:23:17] Claire: Yeah, I think, yeah, it is important because you're right, it's unconscious, it's happening unconsciously to us, and even sometimes in supervision, I'll be talking about something and then my supervisor will say, oh, the counter transference, and I'll think, oh gosh, there's the counter transference. I hadn't seen that, but there it is.

[00:23:36] Bronwyn: Yes, totally. So I'm curious to know with countertransference, what are some typical countertransference reactions that psychologists might experience?

[00:23:45] Claire: Yeah, so because that is, so, I think that's can sometimes be a little bit easier to identify, um, in ourselves.

[00:23:53] Bronwyn: I definitely find it easier.

[00:23:55] Claire: Yeah. Yeah, because we're experiencing reaction, um, so it is when we start to feel different about some things, I think, gosh, I. I don't normally have this reaction, but I'm having this reaction. So suddenly in a session, you might sudden- suddenly feel something. It could be sadness, it could be anger, it could be frustration, that doesn't seem to kind of fit the conversation.

So something that feels a little bit different. Or when you feel yourself sometimes even tempted to do something different, like, I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm gonna do this with this client. I would always take those situations to supervision.

[00:24:31] Bronwyn: That's such interesting, I really love paying attention to that in myself, like even giving a client five more minutes in therapy. I find that very interesting when I do and don't do that. Um, and yeah, I just, I find it really interesting to pick up on these things in myself.

[00:24:45] Claire: Yeah, because you're wondering why you're doing something with-

[00:24:48] Bronwyn: Yeah. Why am I doing that? Yeah, it's very interesting.

[00:24:50] Claire: Yeah, and it's so, it is often when we begin to, when we begin to have those feelings that I would be wanting to pay attention to that. or if we feel triggered by somebody, you know, it's, it. So it could either be, I don't know why I am feeling this way, but I am with this person. Or it could be, um, I'm so frustrated with this person or with this client, or in this situation because... and then thinking about whether that is because the therapy's not progressing as we want it to- to, or is there something in this client that is reminding us of something else in our own lives?

And so when it comes to counter transference, this is where I think personal therapy or personal reflection even is, should be differentiated between the supervision, because when it's about the client, that's when we need to take it to supervision. When it's about us, yes, we can take some of that to supervision, to unpack it and identify whether it is actually, um, subjective counter transference, but really that belongs outside. That's our own work to do.

[00:26:01] Bronwyn: So as a supervisee, should I feel scared about discussing a countertransference reaction with a supervisor? Like, are they going to be like, don't talk to me about that. I guess how do you manage that delicately and, and respectfully?

[00:26:13] Claire: I would really hope that somebody did not feel scared to bring that to supervision because it's all relevant, but it might be that something personal wouldn't get unpacked in the supervision session. So I think it's all relevant to bring in, even if it is reflective of something personal, because sometimes we don't know. And so sometimes it's about, okay, well this feels like a personal reaction, and is there some place that you can begin to reflect on that? Because I don't want to go into someone's personal circumstances unless it directly relates. So sometimes someone might say, yes, I've had a situation like this before and it's so reflective of this client, in which case, I think it's really helpful to name that. Yeah, I don't ever wanna kind of say, although some, there's, there's a place for personal therapy and there's a place for supervision, I'd never say you cannot bring that into supervision.

[00:27:16] Bronwyn: I guess it sounds like it's important perhaps to even say to your supervisor, like, I noticed I'm experiencing my own reaction here because of past stuff that I'm, that's related to me, right?

[00:27:27] Claire: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's really important for the supervisor to know that as well, and sometimes it as a supervisor in supervision. I've also worked with supervisees on, well, how do we take care of you in the therapy room because you are going to be triggered by this client. How can we help you stay present for this client? And that might just be as simple as using some techniques that we're using with our clients, how can we apply some of that to ourselves? Because sometimes the work is difficult, so it's not like I'm not gonna help you with that. If it's if, if there's something, if there's some way I can support someone with that, I always will, but I just won't, being psychodynamically oriented, I wouldn't wanna unpack their personal circumstances.

[00:28:19] Bronwyn: That makes, that makes a lot of sense to me. And I think that's a, it's, it's clarifying the role of supervision and the role of therapy as well, which I think is a nice distinction to have.

[00:28:28] Claire: Yeah, it is important distinction to have, but I think they can blur into one at times. Um, and-

[00:28:34] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:28:34] Claire: I think that it, I wouldn't ever wanna say something was off limits.

[00:28:39] Bronwyn: No, and I, I guess like just reflecting my own personal experiences with supervision, I think it depends on the robustness of the supervision relationship as well. There have been some supervisors who like, we're happy to explore a little bit more personal stuff than I have with other supervisors, and that's purely like length of the supervisory relationship, like years, and I guess like knowing the limits of, of that as well, I guess it's a bit of comfort for me. I don't know if that's similar to you.

[00:29:03] Claire: Yeah, I think so, because if you've got a good supervisory relationship and they know you, then they're gonna say, yeah, this type of situ- this type of presentation can be hard, yeah? This is something you've had before, and they'll know you and they'll be able to support you with that in a way.

[00:29:20] Bronwyn: Hmm, exactly.

[00:29:22] Claire: Because they've got more information. So I think that it's not about not disclosing that at all... I think disclosing that to your supervisor if you feel comfortable, um, can be incredibly valuable in supervision as well. And it, I think it, it displays a real openness to learning and, and wanting to, you know, really explore how to get the best, from the therapeutic work that you're doing with your clients.

[00:29:50] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I think that's important to emphasize as well. It's not like we're just doing navel gazing for the fun of it. It's like, we're doing this in the surface of our client.

[00:29:58] Claire: Yes.

[00:29:58] Bronwyn: Like, yes, it's nice to learn more about ourselves, but it's like we're trying to deliver. We're trying to help our client as best we can, and not being aware of these countertransference reactions, they can interfere with how well we can help our client and how effective we can be.

[00:30:14] Claire: They can, they can. And, it's not intentional because it's, it's so unconscious and we are wanting to do a great job. We are really wanting, more than anything, most of us, um, to really support our clients, and if we realize that something that we are doing has the potential to get in the way of that, most of us are wanting to work on that.

[00:30:34] Bronwyn: So we've talked about supervision, we've talked about therapy. Are there any other steps that we can take to manage countertransference? If we notice that we're, we're, we're having strong emotional reactions towards a client.

[00:30:46] Claire: There are times when we can bring it up with the client, but it, it would depend on how helpful that's going to be for the client.

[00:30:56] Bronwyn: I had a hypothetical situation for this question 'cause I wanted to ask you whether it's ever helpful to bring it up with a client, and my hypothetical situation was like, let's say somebody, the therapist is very social justice oriented and their client really needs her to write a letter for them for some situation that's related to advocacy. Um, the, the therapist has this reaction where they're like, I wanna help, but it might be overextending their role from the therapeutic role. And I thought like, you know, that's probably a relatively common potential countertransference reaction you can have. Would it ever be appropriate or beneficial after the therapist steps back and is like, oh, actually no, this is to do with my sense of justice and wanting this resolved. It's not actually in the best interest of the client. Is it ever helpful to bring that up with them?

[00:31:43] Claire: Well, I think in that situation, the client, particularly if their request is gonna be declined, which will be disappointing...

[00:31:54] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:31:54] Claire: ...yeah, they'll understand why rationally, clearly we, if we have a really good reason for declining that and explaining that, they might understand that on a rational basis. But I think for us to then add in, you know, the part of me that wants the social justice and that wants the best for you would really like to be writing this letter, I think would actually add a lot to the therapeutic relationship. Because it would really convey to the client that you care, and I think that's really important for a client to know. I think that'd be, I can't imagine that it wouldn't be helpful for a client to know that, but you'd need to be very clear in that situation around the reasoning for saying no. And I think that you'd need to be clear whether you share that or you don't.

[00:32:44] Bronwyn: Yeah, that makes sense to me, 'cause I guess like one thing we're thinking is if we're going to be sharing a countertransference reaction, how that will affect the client to hear that and also affect the relationship as well. I feel like it's very tricky and I guess that emphasizes the importance of supervision as well in deciding potentially to do this.

[00:33:02] Claire: Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes it, it, it can be helpful, like I'm thinking about, you know, where a client might be quite critical towards others in general. And sometimes I think that's gonna happen to me at some point. I, I'm-

[00:33:18] Bronwyn: Oh, yes, I've thought that too.

[00:33:20] Claire: And, and sometimes I'll just name that and say, you know, I've noticed there is this tendency, you know, to, to feel quite frustrated towards other people, you know, and I wonder whether you feel frustrated towards me at times. That would probably be more, that's more a transference response and seeing whether that gets transferred onto me.

Um, but a counter transference response might be, you know, occasionally I have felt that in this room. You know, I have sometimes felt a little bit on the receiving end of that. You know, I can imagine that you know what it might be like for people when you do that.

And so when we're trying to create a sense of insight and awareness, particularly interpersonally where somebody is struggling interpersonally, if we can bring in our own countertransference responses that are objectively the client- related to the client, then that can help the client understand more because we are sharing our experiences because other people might not explain them in the same way. Now there might be this sense of anger or a rejection, and they don't necessarily get a sense of, okay, well this is actually maybe how you're making me feel.

That could be, you know, I've experienced this, I wonder if that person may also be experiencing that, what that might be like to be on the receiving end of your, your anger or your frustration or when you do that. And yes, I hear the anger and I hear the frustration, but what it does is it pushes people away.

[00:34:52] Bronwyn: So what you are doing, what I, what I perceive you're doing, is you're using your feelings in the therapeutic relationship to help them understand their relationships outside of therapy and how those dynamics might be showing up for them.

[00:35:05] Claire: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:35:07] Bronwyn: And, and the way you're doing it as well, I noticed that it's a short phrase. So it's not like, um, and then, and then this morning I noticed, I felt frustrated and then I went to the kitchen and then I felt a little bit more angry and then, and then I watched the TV and I felt a little bit more angry about our situation here today. It's quite a short phrase that you are, that you're giving them. You're like, I wonder, or I've noticed this shows up sometimes in here, too, and I wonder what this says. Could you just speak a little bit to that?

[00:35:33] Claire: Well, that's because it's about the client and not us. So if I go into my own sort of dialogue about my own experience, then the client's gonna be in my seat, and it's also going to be... I think the point's gonna be lost because they're caught up in my experience and so will I, and I might not get back to them.

[00:35:52] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I guess like maybe a takeaway from that is that if we're sharing counter transference reactions, because we need some sort of, um, like it's, it's for us, like some sort of way of expressing our own feelings for the point of us, then maybe it's not an appropriate way to do that?

[00:36:11] Claire: Yeah, I think it's got to be very much in relation to the client, so we need to be able to convey it to the client in a way that they can hear us and respond to us. We want 'em to get it and go, oh, okay, this is what happens, and we wanna do it really gently so that we are not rejecting them in the process and so that we can encourage them to explore something interpersonally in a relationship that doesn't necessarily have the same level of risk attached to it, because they know that we are there, we are attuned, and so it's a different experience.

[00:36:46] Bronwyn: Gosh, I really love that. It makes it very clear. I think the way you're explaining it is really helpful. I wanted to ask you what would be like the top mistakes that, that you might have observed or you think that early career psychs or clinicians might make with respect to transference and countertransference?

[00:37:02] Claire: I think early on we've got so much to learn and we are taking in so much new information and we're already very nervous. And so I think any form of counter transference that has the potential to, um, trigger us, so for example, if the client then responds to us with frustration or anger or, you know, no one can help me, these sorts of things that really kind of tap into our own kind of schemas as well, um, can be quite hard to manage because, you know, we're, we're trying to hold so much all at the same time.

And so it's, sometimes it's around either not picking it up as transference and taking it personally, like the therapist taking it personally, or the therapist getting into an enactment with the client which isn't helpful for anybody, it'd be, and everybody starts to sort of feel a bit frustrated or a bit dysregulated.

Um, and so I think that these are the things I'd probably be looking out for is, you know, just observing our own reactions in the room to when the client does bring up, because even though it's transference, when the client springs up strong emotions, it can still bring up feelings in us.

[00:38:22] Bronwyn: So true. I'm just trying, I was just thinking back to like what I think would be a really common early career countertransference reaction because I think as early career psychs, we wanna be so helpful and we wanna do our job as well. And we really wanna help clients get to where they're at. And I think that helpfulness, like you just said beforehand, if a client is saying to us, nobody is helping me, um, we can just try harder and harder. We're like, I'll give them 10 strategies this session, I'll give them 20. Um, and that can be our own countertransference reaction and so, it's so important to pick up on that early on.

[00:38:52] Claire: Yeah, and like you said earlier about when we, when we're doing something different to what we normally, you know, I'll give them an extra 10 minutes, so I'll, I'll give them a few extra strategies and we, we end up trying harder, um, and it doesn't actually kind of get to the core of the issue... is that actually that client's never really felt seen or heard.

[00:39:11] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's a great learning experience. I have to say, like, even though, you know, I've done some of those things only in my career, it's a great learning opportunity because you get to find out more about yourself, and you get to take a step back inside therapy sessions and be like, like just internal voice to yourself, you're like, huh, I'm reacting that way. Isn't that interesting? Like, I, I know I've done that before and, and it hasn't worked out well. So, oh, what if I respond differently, with curiosity?

[00:39:37] Claire: I think curiosity is, is the key word here. You know, client says something, Hmm, I wonder why they've done that. I wonder what what they mean by that? Um, rather than, and it's easier said than done, jump-

[00:39:52] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

[00:39:53] Claire: -done? What did I say?

[00:39:54] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. It is. Yeah. Easier said than done, but I think, um, with knowing yourself and over time and practice it, it does become a bit easier. I've noticed it's become a bit easier over the years. Is it a bit easier for you or do you still find it really challenging?

[00:40:09] Claire: It is easier, but I still do, I do find it challenging. I think that, you know, when we are trying to... because we are not mind readers, we are looking for these clues all of the time. And because there's so much information, we don't always, we don't always pick it all up. So we're, we are doing our best to, you know, to try and identify when it's happening, but there are times when I know I would miss it, and, um, and that's just the, the ongoing learning experience. But I think it does become easier and I find myself less defensive. So, um, if a client was to... I think I was maybe criticizing them or that I was annoyed with them or that I maybe wasn't listening to them or understanding them, and I knew that that wasn't really reflective of what's happening in the room, 'cause I'm really attuned, I'm trying and I'm not being critical and I know I'm not being, that's when I think, I think we've got some transference here and that's when I would be able to then get curious with them about what's going on. And so that does get a little bit easier managing my own responses because if I'm not having that strong reaction, I can then immediately go to that place of curiosity with them.

[00:41:26] Bronwyn: So you're a bit more steady. And I've noticed that as well. I think early on, if I felt that a client thought that I was criticizing them, I'd be really upset, um, like emotionally, and I'd have quite a strong reaction to that. But now, like you say, it's more of like, oh, that's interesting. And yeah, I just become curious about it and I'm able to remain more steady.

[00:41:46] Claire: Yeah, I think that that does come over time. The other thing I wanna just add to that, when you say about, you know, there being early career, we are taking in so much and we will make mistakes actually. We'll make mistakes all the way through...

[00:41:59] Bronwyn: Yeah. No. Only early in your career.

[00:42:03] Claire: Always!

[00:42:05] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:42:05] Claire: It, it, also can give us the opportunity to get things wrong. If we don't get things wrong, we can also go to repair that. And that can also be really helpful in the therapeutic relationship sometimes to say to a client, maybe I didn't get that quite right. Maybe I didn't understand that. Help me understand that. And they're less likely to say, see, I told you so. They're more likely to say, oh, finally, somebody really wants to know me and understand me, and then likely to be more forgiving.

[00:42:34] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. I love repair. I think it's one of the best features of a therapeutic relationship, and it's often something that people do not experience in their day-to-day relationships. Particularly folks who are vulnerable and come to therapy with us, they may have had a history of where people have left a relationship rather than repair, and I think it's a profoundly, potentially transformative experience to be able to experience that in therapy.

[00:42:57] Claire: I think so. I, I really think so. And I think when we do address transference in the therapy room, sometimes we are addressing something that is quite difficult or quite confronting for a client, but if we can do that in a way that is very gentle and says, I'm here with you, regardless of this. I'm not judging you, hopefully that's not what comes across. Hopefully they can sit with that and feel as though we are genuinely wanting to help them understand more about themselves without that sort of layer of judgment and criticism, then that's going to bring about a very different experience as well. So using the transference I think can be very beneficial for the relationship.

[00:43:37] Bronwyn: Definitely. So, Claire, you mentioned before that early career psychs, there's so much to take in, there is so much information, they're learning so much. I definitely don't want this to be like another thing for therapists to add to their pile. Like, oh, great, now I need to know comprehensively transference and countertransference reactions... but given that they're so important, what's a small step that listeners can take if they're interested in this area? They wanna, they wanna really just dip their toes into it. What's the smallest thing they can do?

[00:44:05] Claire: We will be looking for differences and changes in our own reactions. So if you're noticing in a session or after a session that you are feeling something that you don't normally feel, I would encourage you just to name that, reflect on that, maybe journal or write it down, or talk through a, uh, talk through it in supervision, or in therapy if you have that opportunity. I know that's not available to everybody during the internship particularly. Um, and so beginning to just open up to your own experiences and become more aware of that because it's so easy to sort of write these off and we don't wanna lose curiosity because we can lose really helpful information.

And I do the same with transference. If a client is responding to us in a way that just doesn't feel, it feels a bit off or doesn't fit in some way, again, we don't have to address it in the session, we can reflect on it afterwards. I mean, we are likely to have the opportunity to revisit that. If a client is going to come in with a particular way of relating, the chances are you'll see it again and again. So if you do miss it the first few times, doesn't mean to say that you don't have the opportunity to bring it back or even later in a session. So yeah, just, just listen out for it. You don't have to name it. You don't have to do anything with it, but listen out for it. And see whether there are patterns. And if there are, then you might be able to bring those back into the room, begin to explore those and identify them. And that might take the pressure off a little bit on, oh gosh, I've gotta listen to this and do this and listen to my own responses and do these great interventions and think about how I'm gonna write my therapy notes and then think about what I'm gonna say in the GP letter. I mean, there's so much to think about.

[00:46:03] Bronwyn: There is. Yeah, no, that's really helpful and I think takes the pressure off and is quite reassuring to hear as well. Is there anything else that we haven't covered about transference countertransference that you wanted to get across to listeners?

[00:46:16] Claire: I think there's, there's so much to say. Like you said, how long's a piece of string? And I'm just hoping that it gives people an interest in this topic and gets people curious about this. I think because the terminology is used so much, um, in relation to psychodynamic or psychoanalytic work, which often isn't part of our core training and is often seen as something that we need to do years and years of training and therapy in, it can still be used in any model of therapy. So it's not like you've got to go off and do this huge training. It can be really brought into any model of therapy and it's really about using as a it as a tool and it being helpful to inform the therapy and helpful for the client.

So that's what I'm hoping people will take away is just some curiosity around this. Once you start to look out for this, you'll probably notice it more and more.

[00:47:24] Bronwyn: When I started looking out for it, it was everywhere. It was like everywhere all the time. And I was like, oh, oh, interesting, interesting. Um, but I feel like yeah, it really helped. but, but yeah, I think those are really important takeaways. Do you have any like favorite books that you would recommend or?

[00:47:41] Claire: I think a really good person to listen to and has a great website is Jonathan Shedler, who is a psychodynamic therapist in the us. His re he's writing is very accessible, but he's done some great, um, podcasts. Um, and, um, I think he does some writing on Psychology Today as well. So it's, it's very sort of short, easy to read articles. And then his website I think has a few chapters and he's done a few meta-analysis. So he's, he's very prominent in that field, but he does write about transference and counter transference.

The other person that I like is Nancy McWilliams, and she's written some great books, and one of her books is called Psychoanalytic Diagnosis, and she talks about personality structure as opposed to personality disorder. And a lot of the... It's a great book because it breaks it down into the different personality structures, so depre-, depressive, narcissistic, histrionic, et cetera. And she really provides a lot of lovely, um, examples of maybe what might be going on in the client's internal world and some ways that that might be brought into the therapy room.

So it, it's quite practical, but not in a step by step. Um, sort of process. It's more around this is what you'd be looking for in the therapy room, and that will be very transference based. And also, you know, how the clinician might feel when working with these types of personalities. So, Nancy McWilliams is really, is a really good read as well.

[00:49:31] Bronwyn: Yeah, I love both of those resources. I think Jonathan Sheldon has my favorite chapter that I read on psychodynamic psychotherapy. It was like, it was literally like intro to intro to that, and I was like, this is so accessible and I totally understand it from just reading it. So I'll pop links to those in the show notes so listeners can have a look if they wish.

[00:49:50] Claire: Yeah, I think both of those are very accessible. I'm not, um, I personally, um, lose interest when, uh, when books are, are too dense and, and, you know, the, the, it becomes too complex. And so both of these writers are, are very accessible and so, you know, you could... you quite easily absorb the information. And I think that's the other thing because a lot of the psychoanalytic literature, you know, it was written a fair time ago and um, and some of it doesn't feel as accessible. And so it's trying to get something that, that somebody can grasp and say, ah, I get this.

[00:50:30] Bronwyn: Mm. I remember during my master's year that one of my lecturers really encouraged reading the source material for like Bowlbie. It's like, go, go seek the Bowlbie book that actually read them, and Bowlbie was all right actually. But I remember trying to read a few other authors and I was like reading the same paragraph 10 times and I'm like, I don't actually understand what they're saying here. Yeah. I'm like, dunno how to read.

[00:50:53] Claire: Yeah, and I, so, so I wouldn't be recommending anything like that, but the textbook, Nancy McWilliams, written a few books. One on, um, uh, formulation, uh, one on uh, therapy, one on supervision actually, and diagnosis and yeah, yeah, and she very much draws on other methods as well. She doesn't have this opinion that it's only psychoanalytic therapy and, you know, that's the, the sort of the Bible, you've really got to only follow this method... she's very, very open. Um, to, um, to other methods as well, which I think can be, make it even more accessible for people coming from different modalities.

[00:51:35] Bronwyn: I agree. Claire, it has been such a pleasure to talk with you about this important topic. I'm so glad we got to record this episode. For me, it's like, oh, finally, I've done this episode, so I'm so glad that you are able to contribute with your expertise and background. I really appreciate it.

[00:51:48] Claire: Thank you so much for having me. It's been lovely having this conversation. Thank you.

[00:51:54] Bronwyn: No worries. If listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:51:58] Claire: Thank you. I am at thegrowingtherapist.com.au, which is my website for early career psychologists and provisional psychologists. Um, I also have a private practice where I see clients, um, for therapy for EMDR, psychodynamic and somatic therapy, and that is Holistic Psychology Services. And I co-host the Between Two Psychs podcast. So if you are interested in just, I guess my supervision style, a little bit more information about how I might work, you can listen to the podcast and I have my own brand new podcast coming out in September, and that will be the Growing Therapist podcast.

[00:52:40] Bronwyn: Oh good. When this is released, your podcast will also have been released, so I'll make sure to link to that in the episode show notes.

[00:52:47] Claire: Thank you.

[00:52:48] Bronwyn: No worries. My pleasure. Thanks again, Claire.

And listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please do share it with somebody else. It's the best way to get the podcast out there and also live a five star rating and review, that really helps as well. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Brendan Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.