Managing the feelings that come along with running a private practice (with Harriet Iles)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about reflections on imposter syndrome and anxiety. Really common topics that I think affect a lot of early career mental health workers.

Have you ever felt like a fraud in your role despite your training and really hard work? In this episode, we're going to unpack imposter syndrome and the anxiety that often tags along with it, especially when you're running a private practice or navigating the early years of your psychology career.

Here to help us out with this topic is our return guest, Harriet Isles. Welcome back, Harriet.

[00:00:42] Harriet: Thank you for having me again.

[00:00:44] Bronwyn: It's such a pleasure to have you back on. Listeners, if you are not familiar with Harriet, harriet was on a previous episode where we talked about eating disorders. It was the first kind of episode that we had on eating disorders in the podcast, and I was really keen to have Harriet on. So it's a delight to have you back.

[00:00:58] Harriet: So good to be here. And it was, um, a really great conversation last time where we Yeah, definitely fleshed out eating disorders and, and how, um, how we support people with managing symptoms of, um, disordered eating.

[00:01:10] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. So maybe you can just give listeners who are new to you, a bit of a refresh on who you are.

[00:01:15] Harriet: So I am a psychologist, uh, and I work in the area of disordered eating as well as low mood, um, and generalized anxiety and overthinking. Um, and I also support people with, um, some subclinical issues, such as, helping them to build resilience, self-confidence, self-compassion, and sort of navigating different changes in their world.

So really building that toolkit, um, that helps 'em to reconnect to their values, to manage their symptoms, and to build, um, that resilience, uh, on a day to day.

[00:01:50] Bronwyn: Amazing. And I think things have changed for you since we last spoke. So you are now running your own private practice, is that right?

[00:01:58] Harriet: Yes. So I, um, I do spend a little bit of time in my week, um, on my own business. So that is, a private practice based in Guara in Sydney. And I, um, predominantly, um, work, with individuals who like support with managing anxiety overthinking, perfectionism, as well as, um, just strategies to support them, to, um, regulate their emotions and, regulate their nervous system, uh, on a day to day as well. So, um, that's been a really exciting venture. Very new, very exciting, um, and very rewarding.

[00:02:34] Bronwyn: Totally. But today we're going to, I guess, flip the mirror, instead of looking at clients, we're looking at you because we're going to be having a look at imposter syndrome and how it shows up in, I guess, early career psychs, but also just, uh, regular psychs who are, more down the track than early career, I guess.

And maybe first I just wanted to define imposter syndrome, and I'm always curious about this because we talk about imposter syndrome, so commonly and regularly we're like, oh, imposter syndrome. But I'm really interested in people's different understandings and definitions of it because my definition of imposter syndrome is kind of along the lines of chronic self-doubt, but I'm interested, what do you think is imposter syndrome?

[00:03:12] Harriet: I definitely think doubt. Yeah. Um, comes into it, um, where someone sort of doubts their ability to do something. This sort of fear as well of. You know what, if someone sees what I'm doing and, and it's not good enough. And someone might be experiencing this despite, um, you know, evidence of their competence, their success, they've got the qualifications to do that. And I guess it can sound like, you know, I don't belong here. I'm, I'm just lucky. I've just, just, it's just luck. Someone might realize that I'm actually not that good at this or, um, or whatnot. So it can sound like, um, those unhelpful thoughts coming in.

And I think with imposter syndrome, you know, extremely high achieving capable people, um, experience imposter syndrome, and um, you know, it is especially common in, in new roles in competitive environments. So when, um, someone doesn't see others like them represented.

So, yeah, it, it's definitely an experience I think everyone can, um, go through. Everyone does go through, at various points in their life when say they're in new roles, um, and in challenging environments that are meaningful where they, you know, they really, really wanna do well. They wanna learn, they wanna grow. Um, so it's important to, I guess, yeah, bring awareness to this and, and to build people's toolkit, so that they can manage, move through, validate, and I guess build that sense of, of confidence, and strength to continue to grow and embrace setbacks is just sort of like a stepping stone to growth.

[00:04:47] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. And I think you raised a few good points there. I think with early career psychologists in particular, like we want to do well, and quite often as a cohort, we are high achievers, we have a lot of empathy, we have a lot of high standards for ourselves, and so it can be that we we're particularly vulnerable to feeling like we're not good enough for not reaching the standard that we're setting for ourselves, and everybody else is going to find out that we're just here by luck and circumstance rather than our own capabilities. So yeah, I think the points you raised really tie in well with, with I guess who we are characteristically as a cohort.

[00:05:22] Harriet: Definitely, definitely. I think, it's very common, particularly in your first couple of years as a psychologist and, and, and ongoing as well, to get quite perfectionistic, having to have this perfect plan and all the perfect, um, tools and strategies, which obviously, you know, it's really important that, what we're bringing to the sessions, evidence-based and, and we're really attuning to the client, but also learning to be present with the client and, really attuned in the moment to sort of what they need.

And sometimes we can't always prepare for that. It, it's, it just, it's about being present, um, and being grounded with the clients. So, yes, it's something that I think everyone experiences particularly, you know, when you are, um, navigating those first few years of the profession and discovering who you are as a clinician too.

[00:06:12] Bronwyn: And I guess for some people it can be like really crippling. It's like for some people it can be like a fleeting thought, like, oh no, what if I'm not really as good as I think I am? But for other people, it can be really all consuming. And I guess that's why we focus on it as well, because it can be associated with burnout. It can make you feel quite anxious a lot of the time, and it can even foster, I guess, or contribute further to just feeling really crappy about yourself, so low self-esteem. So yeah, it's important I guess, to recognize it and be aware and help yourself if it is really impacting you, right?

[00:06:45] Harriet: Definitely, I think it's about, I mean, mindfulness, that self-awareness is, is um, the first step really starting to attune into some of those thoughts and behaviors and feelings that you're experiencing and to to obviously validate those, make space and room for those. And you know, I often say to people, and I say to myself, when you feel that sense of imposter syndrome, you know it's 'cause you care. It's 'cause you wanna do really, really well. It's 'cause it means something to you, and it's often indicative that yes, you are growing right? And so, um, it's about almost like embracing that and going, okay, how can I build that sense of self, that self concept, that identity, um, how can I make room and space for, for time, for, for well, for learning and for growing, and um, I guess just being, yeah, really open to, always, yeah, always learning and growing. Yeah, that's, that's what I meant to say.

[00:07:42] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I guess like doing that in a way that's compassionate rather than being like, I must always learn and grow and I must do that perfectly. And it must be in this particular way... I guess if you find yourself doing a lot of those shoulds and musts, it might be, uh, maybe just, uh, maybe just putting a lot of unfair pressure on yourself. Like let's just put it that way.

So I'm interested in you. When did imposter syndrome first show up for you? Like can you take us back to what it looked like or sounded like in your head at the time?

[00:08:11] Harriet: So, um, yeah, I mean, private practice can be a bit of a great breeding ground at times for imposter feelings, 'cause you're often, you know, working independently, juggling a lot of different work, different like clinical work, business responsibilities and things like that. And there is, I guess, sort of this pressure to, um, you know, always appear, fully confident and fully competent. So, you know, definitely as I was navigating, just um. Entering into the business and, and, suddenly it's, you know, you are, you are wearing a lot of different hats, some of those, um, sort of imposter feelings of doubt and and stress, um, came about for me. So, that's sort of when I really started to, to notice some of that. And, that I guess kind of led me to really reflect on, the reasons why I was starting my business and, um, how that really aligned to my values and, the meaning behind that. Um, and that kind of helped me to understand, you know, why some of, some of that doubt, um, was there, but particularly 'cause it was so novel as well.

I think that, you know, as I said, when you were in those novel environments, when you're doing new things, your head often kind of goes to that, what are you doing? You can't do this. This is so new, this is so weird. so again, you're just being really attuned, attuned to that and, um, mindful of that and constantly, I guess, yeah, trying to, uh, navigate that and find ways to move through it effectively so that you can, do your job and really enjoy doing it and be confident in your capacity to do it.

[00:09:45] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It's like enjoying your job. It's like we don't actually want to have this terrible experience of running our business and helping our clients. It's like we actually do wanna experience some joy in this profession. It sounds like with imposter syndrome, it showed up for you when you were trying to do new things like running your own private practice and when you're extending yourself into new areas, and I think that's completely normal and understandable to, I guess, have thoughts where you're like, can I do this, what am I doing, and reflect on that.

[00:10:20] Harriet: Definitely, definitely. And I guess as you are taking those little steps to stretch your comfort zone, there's gonna be that element of novelty and uncertainty at times and not always having the information that you need because you haven't done it before , or feeling a little bit out of control and so that obviously can then fuel that anxiety.

It is about sort of reconnecting to your values, um, and going, okay, well, I'm just gonna have to do this with a little bit of nerves and a little bit of anxiety because that aligns with my values and it's going to really foster my growth.

[00:10:56] Bronwyn: It sounds like you've already come out the other end of your imposter syndrome experience. You're talking about it like, I've reflected, I've mindfully tuned in, I've- you're, you're displaying self-compassion. Um, is that right or do you still feel like you're in it?

[00:11:13] Harriet: I think we go in and out of it because I guess we're always, I mean, myself, I'm, I'm always wanting to... It, like expand my comfort zone. So for me, it's kind of comes and, and goes in the sense of, um, you take that little step, you get familiar, you know, you, you, you apply your different strategies to support yourself, and once that's familiar, okay, awesome. What's the next step I can take to expand my comfort zone, to build on what I've already done to, to build on my skill, skillset.

Um, so I think with imposter syndrome, usually for me, it just comes up when I'm. Starting that, taking that next step to stretch my comfort zone. So I'd say that yes, I've got some tools, um, to, to really support me, um, to continue to build that resilience and confidence and to manage imposter syndrome. I think it naturally kind of comes back as you are stretching your comfort zone step by step.

[00:12:07] Bronwyn: And the way that you're talking about it as well, it really sounds like you're one of these psychologists who uses the tools that you give to clients on yourself? Is that correct?

[00:12:15] Harriet: I, I often, um, you know, reflect on, on this. I really do like to practice what I preach as a psychologist. Um, and one thing I often say, because I work a lot with, you know, mood and symptoms of anxiety, which is something that we all experience, you know, we all, we feel the full spectrum of emotion, um, as humans. And so when talking to people about anxiety... You know, I'll say to a client, of course, there are times when, when I'm quite anxious, and so, you know, these, these are tools that everyone, you know, we as a collective can use to support ourself. You know, sometimes they work, sometimes another tool... it's like sometimes tool A works on this day, sometimes tool B works on that day and that's fine.

But, but as humans, like these are some of the key things that we can use, um, to support ourself, to manage, uh, emotions, and, and clients often, um, like hearing that, you know, we, we as therapists as well are using some of these tools to support ourselves 'cause it helps 'em to feel not alone and it helps 'em to build that sense of compassion for themselves, 'cause they realize, hey, anxiety is a human experience.

[00:13:24] Bronwyn: Totally. It's a good role modeling of the, the tools and behaviors that we can use. So it's not just, we're saying, throwing out self-compassion as like a, a silly thing to do. It's like it actually works and we do it too, and it's beneficial.

[00:13:38] Harriet: Yes.

[00:13:39] Bronwyn: Yeah. I wanted to ask you if you're aware of any common myths or misunderstandings you think people have about imposter syndrome? I know it's a big question. I'm surprised I wrote this one down to ask you, because I'm like, that's a hard question, so if you don't,

[00:13:54] Harriet: one, one of these myths or misunderstandings, um, is that, uh, imposter syndrome sort of only affects kind of beginners, but it, I think it can show up... um, it can show up in anyone at any point of, of their career, you know, as they're continuously, um, expanding their comfort zone.

And, and for whatever reason, I, I guess some people might be going through periods of heightened anxiety, um, or low mood, and as a result of that as well, they might have unhelpful thoughts, um, and, some, some doubt that that creeps in as well. That's coinciding with low mood and heightened anxiety. So that's something to be aware of.

[00:14:30] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that's a really good point because even as psychologists like we have to do a certain number of hours of professional development every year. So if we are doing that we're going to take on new knowledge and new skills, and then we're kind of always beginners in some way or another with something that we're doing in our practice.

And a lot of people enjoy extending themselves in their practice to avoid repetition and just to challenge themselves in new areas. And so, even though we're not technically at the start of our careers, we're still gonna be beginners in some skills or areas. It's like a double-edged sword, I think with psychology, it's like there are so many areas to explore that it's endless and that's great, but at the same time, there's so many areas to explore and it's endless.

[00:15:13] Harriet: A hundred percent. Yeah,

[00:15:15] Bronwyn: Hmm, yeah.

[00:15:17] Harriet: Um, another one being that imposter syndrome, uh, could be a sign of being underqualified.

[00:15:23] Bronwyn: Oh yes. Good one.

[00:15:25] Harriet: It, it, it definitely, um, isn't, um, as I said it often, can often stem from, um, us, say, having maybe unrealistic expectations or standards on ourselves and perfectionism as well, or just this sense of I should be perfect at this. I can't make any errors, or, you know, and everything should be easy and breezy, if I find this challenging, therefore, I'm not. You know, I can't do this role. So there's a bit of that all or nothing thinking that black and white, that perfectionism coming in and that rigidity, I guess, in thinking that could be potentially fueling, the, the, the doubt and symptoms of, of imposter syndrome. So, there's that one.

A lot of people think that the goal is just to kind of completely get rid of imposter syndrome. Just like a lot of people say, I just wanna get rid of anxiety. And it's like, well, no, it's about managing anxiety. And so I guess we wanna, we wanna normalize that it's okay to feel a little bit of doubt at times. It's just about working with it, responding with curiosity and compassion. Um, and so I guess, yeah, the fact that imposter syndrome can, can come back, it, I guess the goal being just to, to understand it, to understand what it's saying. Um, and as I said earlier, usually in plus to syndrome's about, at the heart of it, you know, this thing means something to me and I wanna do a really good job. So it's kind of listening to that message, um, and supporting ourselves with that.

[00:16:48] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that's a particularly important one because there is some research that has been undertaken on people who deliver therapy, and what they've found is that, over time, therapists actually decrease in the amount of effectiveness they have. It's a really slight negative effect, and I think one of the reasons that people think this might be happening is because they get overconfident in their abilities and they're like, oh, I know how to do this so I can apply this to everyone.

So I really like that finding because it says to me that having a bit of self-doubt can be helpful. It's like just constantly saying to myself, look, is what I'm doing the right thing for this client at this time. Is there another way that I could approach this? Maybe I'm not doing it in the best way that could be helpful for this person.

Um, and so I feel like it helps keep me grounded rather than getting too overconfident in a way that could lead to ineffectiveness.

[00:17:38] Harriet: And, and you do make a really good point in that, with being a psychologist, I guess one of the things that, that we need to continuously, continuously be mindful of is obviously what is, you know, evidence-based practices and up to date evidence-based practices. And just to be really attuned and aware of what that is, um, and also balancing that with the client and how do we attune to the client, meet them where they're at.

Um, so it's sort of this constant juggling exercise between we've got the knowledge of the psychology and our treatment plans and programs. We've obviously got a client sitting in front of us, they're an individual client. How can we kind of bring the two together to provide a therapy that is effective for the client? Um, and so much of that as well is through getting the feed feedback from the client. I'm really big on feedback from the client too, in terms of what's working, what's not.

So I guess to be continuously attuned to that and to, to get support from the client too, in terms of, you know, what's working for them and, and, um, you know, if something doesn't quite sit right with them, then it's like, okay, all right, how can I reframe that? How can I get a little bit more information about that to help the client to understand it better? Or perhaps we need to look at, you know, another area or, um, a different treatment modality for that client based on, you know, where they're at and their feedback.

So I definitely think that, you know, in the profession, we need to be accountable. And it's, I think it's our clients and each other that can hold us accountable as well as ourselves. And, you know, to be always expanding, growing, learning, and, um, refining. And sometimes, yes, that doubt of course is gonna come in as we grow, expand, and learn and gather new information and develop new tools.

[00:19:15] Bronwyn: Yeah, I guess it's saying that self-doubt in, in itself is not inherently bad. Like we don't need to get rid of it, like you were saying before, of all self-doubt. Um, like we wouldn't try to get rid of all anxiety because anxiety has a really useful function, it helps narrow our attention to threat and prepares us for threat. It's when it's continuous or inappropriate to the situation that it's like, oh, maybe we could help change our relationship to this anxiety rather than get rid of it.

[00:19:40] Harriet: Definitely, definitely. It's all about how we relate to it. Just like with thoughts, just like with, yeah, doubt, um, sadness. It's all about how do we bring that curiosity, that compassion to it, and really understand what it's trying to say.

[00:19:55] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. I always just get the image when people talk about sadness of Inside Out, like the first movie, and I'm like, that movie taught us that sadness is so important.

[00:20:04] Harriet: Yeah. Literally.

[00:20:06] Bronwyn: Did you have any other myths or misunderstandings that you wanted to walk us through?

[00:20:10] Harriet: I guess two more that come to mind, one of them being that, you know, imposter syndrome, it's, it's not just about self-doubt, it's, it can be, um, there can be perfectionism as part of it. Fear of failure, fear of success, shame at times the sort of unstable sense of self worth too. So there's lots of different, um, things that can impact the extent to which, you know, we we're experiencing these symptoms of imposter syndrome, which obviously look, look different for everyone.

Um, but then also that it's, it's very common, you know, it's not, it's not something that only a couple of people experience. It's a shared experience. It's part of being human. So, so when you do experience it, it's, I guess coming in with that, curiosity and compassion, um, as opposed to that criticism and judgment of. Oh my gosh, I feel this sense of imposter syndrome. I must be so this, this, this, this, which will just compound, um, I guess the, the emotions that we might be feeling.

[00:21:06] Bronwyn: I wanted to throw my own one in there, which literally only occurred to me like a second ago, but I wanted to throw it in there because it's how I experienced imposter syndrome, because for a long time I didn't think I experienced imposter syndrome. And I was like, everybody else is talking about this thing, and I don't think I experienced this. And I realized that the reason why I thought I didn't experience it was because I was overcompensating so much that it just didn't occur to me.

So what I would do is like if I started a new job, literally the week beforehand, I would read five textbooks on the topics that I knew were gonna come up in the job. Like literally read whole books. And then I'd be like, I don't have a problem. I know everything now! But it's like, I would like burn myself to the ground the week before, like reading textbooks, um, and like watching videos and attending trainings and stuff.

So maybe a misunderstanding is that if you think you don't experience it, you don't have it, you might just be overcompensating and avoiding the feelings of imposter syndrome, um, rather than coming face to face with them and then applying like compassionate strategies towards yourself.

[00:22:03] Harriet: Hmm. Yeah, definitely.

[00:22:06] Bronwyn: Because like in a schema formulation, which is where I primarily practice from, we often talk about what I call in schema therapy as a surrender response. So we are like, we're acting as though the thoughts and feelings associated with imposter syndrome are true. So we're like, I feel like an imposter, therefore, I am an imposter, everybody is gonna find out I'm an imposter. It must mean that I'm not doing a good job. So we're surrendering to those kinds of feelings, whereas in schema, there are avoidance and overcompensation, which is what I just described, and they can be ways of running away from the feelings.

Just wanted to pop that one in there as well. Okay, let's talk about any strategies or mindsets that have helped you begin to work through these feelings of being an imposter. You have alluded and talked to a few of them, is there something that stands out for you as helping the most when you think about , these feelings of imposter syndrome?

[00:22:58] Harriet: A few things. I mean, I would firstly remind myself that these feelings are probably a sign, as I said, that I deeply really care about my work and the people that I support. so really, um, grounding myself in the meaning of the work and how it aligns with my values, and seeing doubt as not a weakness, but more of like an invitation, just kind of slow down, reflect and check in with myself.

 And also I guess, we as psychologists, we do operate quite independently, but really leaning on like peer support, supervision, ongoing, you know, professional development opportunities, , to, to help me to, feel as if I'm not carrying kind of everything alone. And that can kind of help to, um, to manage the doubt and the anxiety at times, knowing that I've got a community around me. I am regularly engaging, with opportunities to learn and to grow and to get clarification and to get support. Um, and also to know that I'm not alone in experiencing these feelings too, that they're shared by, you know, heaps of people too.

[00:24:06] Bronwyn: Well, I love, I love, um, the step you just described there of self-compassion, which is common humanity. It's like, I'm not alone in experiencing this feeling. You are not the first person in the world to have felt like maybe everybody else is gonna find me out. Maybe I'm not as skilled as I think I am. That actually helps me a lot. I really love that one.

[00:24:24] Harriet: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[00:24:26] Bronwyn: And I like how you said that you can also rely on your peer networks, and that's a really great way to establish that shared humanity as well. Like if you say to a peer group that you are feeling a lot of self-doubt, I can guarantee that everybody else in the peer group will be like, oh yeah, I've had those feelings too.

[00:24:42] Harriet: Definitely. Um, so yeah, common humanity is a big one, I think in, in, in the context of self-compassion work, but also just in the context of life.

[00:24:51] Bronwyn: Do you read anything about self-compassion? Like how did you learn about it?

[00:24:54] Harriet: That's a great question. It feels like ages ago that I was first exposed to self-compassion. I, I probably was exposed to self-compassion, when I was looking at, um, acceptance and commitment therapy.

[00:25:09] Bronwyn: Yes. That's a big part of that, isn't it?

[00:25:11] Harriet: Yeah, the, the, the textbooks around that, podcasts, um, and then looking at a bit of self-compassion in the context of some CBT stuff as well. And I think really at the end of the day, it's, whilst it is talked so much about, it's a core principle of acceptance and commitment therapy. I think curiosity and compassion is at the heart of any kind of therapeutic work.

[00:25:35] Bronwyn: No, it is. And I think, um, it's becoming just increasingly recognized as a great way to regulate emotions. Um, and particularly in CBT, it's like a lot of what we do in CBT is asking ourselves about our thoughts. Is this a kind and fair conclusion to draw about myself and other people? And at least that's how I approach it. I'm like, if people are having difficult thoughts, I'm like, let's really have a look. Like, is this telling us the full picture of the story? Is this a kind I guess conclusion to draw about yourself, and I really bring self-compassion in that way.

And then with acceptance and commitment therapy, I guess we're looking a lot of our values and why is this important, like you said before, and am I being kind to myself in helping myself move towards my values or am I taking myself away from those values? Yeah, it's really core part of the work.

[00:26:23] Harriet: Definitely, and I talk a lot about, um, I say to clients as opposed to it being a, I don't really talk about positive or negative thoughts. I talk more about is it helpful or unhelpful?

[00:26:33] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:35] Harriet: And trying to kind of look at thoughts as we've got this full range of different kinds of thoughts with different kinds of themes, but what is actually gonna be, had a helpful way, a helpful thought, um, a helpful perspective to have in this situation. That's going to, encourage us to, to gently move forward in a way that's well in aligned with our values.

[00:26:59] Bronwyn: Mm. Yeah. 100%. Mm. Yeah. I really love reading about self-compassion. It's a great space to, to be in.

[00:27:07] Harriet: Yeah.

[00:27:07] Bronwyn: So Harry, I feel like we've covered a lot in this short amount of time with talking about imposter syndrome, and I really appreciate you sharing your own experiences and the tools and strategies that help you get through. What would you say to an early career listener who was feeling really overwhelmed by anxiety or self doubt in their role right now?

[00:27:26] Harriet: You've come into the psychology profession for a reason and hopefully because it aligns with your, your core values. So come back to the, the core values. Come back to the reason why you came into this profession, and really kind of reconnect and sit with that, and that what you're experiencing is 'cause you care. Um, it's normal to feel some self doubt.

And I think no one expects you to have all the answers right away. You know, this is a process. You know, you've got, um, a certain degree of knowledge up to now, and that's amazing. And that will enable you to do your work and to do it effectively and that you will continue to grow, and growth takes time and experience.

So build community around you. Seek supervision, read things like, I'm constantly reading books and podcasts because I love it, but also, you know, it's, it's ongoing learning and it builds my confidence and my capability too. So be gentle, celebrate the small wins and shift from perfectionism to progression each and every day.

[00:28:27] Bronwyn: Uh, 100%. I really love how you've succinctly put that together. It's a really nice conclusion. I'll add my own one with what I would say to folk, and I'll do it by sharing a little story because I'm currently doing supervisor training and so I was going through my folder where I keep all my supervisor resources and I had some notes from a supervision session that I had myself like a few years ago, and the supervision session focused on how I was extending sessions and going over time because I felt like I hadn't given them enough tools and like I hadn't been as helpful because when I reflect on my values as being a psychologist, it's like I just wanna be helpful. And I know it sounds lame, but it's when I really... when I really focused on like, what is my values here? It's like I just wanna be helpful. And so I was extending sessions because I was like, oh, I haven't been helpful enough. Um, and then going over like by half an hour 'cause I was like, oh, I have to be helpful.

And in that supervision session I was really helped to understand that I've already been helpful in the 60 minutes and I didn't need to keep on overextending myself. I was being helpful just by being a calm, attentive presence and attuning to my client and making sure that they felt heard and understood. And that really helped me because then I could take the pressure of like, oh, but I haven't given them a useful tool. So therefore I have to extend this session by half an hour.

Um, so yeah, I'd guess I just encourage listeners to lower the standards that they have for themselves because usually they're unrealistic and they're not... actually, they're just not, they're just not helpful and they're not compassionate and they're not gentle. I love that word that you said before about being gentle 'cause it's, you need to be gentle and you need to recognize that you're being so helpful just with the things that you're already doing for clients.

[00:30:09] Harriet: Gentle, gentle and softness are such underrated words, and I think that a lot of us think that to be strong we need to be hard and like, not gentle.

[00:30:23] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:30:24] Harriet: I, I think being gentle is like an incredible sign of strength to lean in with softness... is an incredible kind of strength. And lean in is a big, I love that word at the moment, leaning, leaning into something. Like you've gotta embrace that. Um, but that's incredibly, incredibly powerful.

[00:30:43] Bronwyn: I completely agree. I feel like gentleness and leaning in are so, such skillful things to do because what people mostly receive in their day-to-day life is not gentleness. Like if they do something not quick enough, people will be harsh and cold towards them sometimes. And so by being a therapist where we can be gentle and kind and really lean in and sit with that... I think that's an amazing thing to do.

[00:31:09] Harriet: Yeah, and it takes time, like the criticism that, you know, we see in so many, so many people in, in everyone to a certain extent these, these days... I mean, I think it's, it's important to firstly identify what the function of the criticism is. Like, often it's serving some sort of function, but then learning how to let go of that and come in with this, that kind of softness and groundedness, , and, and compassion, being that kind of coach for ourselves where, you know, we still get things done, but we just get it done speaking with this sense of like, encouragement and this passion, you know, as opposed to like, gotta do this, otherwise this will happen.

[00:31:47] Bronwyn: Yeah. Harriet, what do you hope listeners will take away, most of all from our conversation today? Maybe we've just covered it.

[00:31:55] Harriet: I guess just the, the key themes of today, being that, you know, you're not alone in, in experiencing this, that these, these feelings are a sign of... most likely to be a sign that what you're doing is incredibly meaningful. To focus on progress, to focus on the process, as opposed to continuously getting fixated on outcome. And, and to, yeah, build community around you and give yourself the, the, the compassion that you encourage your clients to, to, to give themselves. So being that coach to yourself.

And also I guess using, um... so there's a lot of different takeaways here, isn't it? Using, using self-doubt as a little bit of a tool, like sometimes it does activate a little bit of that stress response. It might actually go, okay, maybe you need to read that. And that's, that's okay too. It's all part of the process. It's all part of learning and growing, um, as a human.

[00:32:49] Bronwyn: 100%. Thank you so much, Harriet. I really love like listening to you. Is that a weird thing to say?

[00:32:56] Harriet: Oh, that's really lovely. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:32:59] Bronwyn: No worries. I just find that you've got a lot of wisdom and just a lot of clarity around this subject, so thank you.

[00:33:05] Harriet: Well, thank you for, um, for having me and it's wonderful to kind of dissect and unpack, um, this in more depth. 'Cause like everything in psychology, it's like an onion. There's so many different, different layers to everything. So it's just really understanding with curiosity and compassion... understanding, you know, what's going on for us, for someone else, and reconnecting to, to what's important.

[00:33:31] Bronwyn: Mm-hmm. Couldn't agree more.

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Thanks so much, Harriet. That's a wrap, listeners. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one to catch you next time. Bye.