Listener story: Studying a Masters of Clinical Psychology (with Tess Rutherford)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we're talking about what it's like studying towards your qualification as a mental health professional.

So it's a listener story. That means we do a deep dive into what's happening in somebody's life, who is studying mental health, and we're going to go behind the scenes about what it's like for them, what challenges they've faced, what opportunities they've had and where they're going in the future. I love doing listener stories because it's such an opportunity to hear from people who are in the thick of it right now.

In this episode specifically, we'll hear from somebody in the trenches of their provisional psychology journey and sharing their lessons of what's helping them get through. Our guest is Tess Rutherford. Hi Tess.

[00:00:52] Tess: Hi, Bronwyn. How are you?

[00:00:53] Bronwyn: I'm well, thank you. How are you going?

[00:00:55] Tess: I'm fantastic. Thank you for having me on.

[00:00:57] Bronwyn: It is such a pleasure to have you on, Tess. Could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non-work passion is?

[00:01:03] Tess: Of course. So, um, my name's Tess. I'm a provisional psychologist and I'm a second year, uh, clinical master's student. I am, um, researching postpartum psychosis as part of my Master's thesis, and I'm essentially just working full-time as a provisional psychologist at the moment, in between, like between work and placement.

I would say my nonwork passion is... actually did like, have a big think about this... um, and I think, so I live in South Australia, which is a very, um, like wine region's, a really amazing, and South Australia, we've got a really beautiful restaurant culture, and I like, I would think, I would have to say like food and wine. Like I love restaurant hopping, going to wineries, um, and yeah, experiencing all of that, I think that's a real like interest and passion of mine outside of work.

[00:01:51] Bronwyn: Is the intensity of your passion such that you are like, which food goes with this wine?

[00:01:57] Tess: Ooh, you know what? I don't, I don't think I'm quite there yet, but I very much see myself in as I, as I age, getting very much more into it. But at the moment I'm, I'm picky with my wine, but not, not that selective yet.

[00:02:11] Bronwyn: Okay. But progressing there.

[00:02:12] Tess: Yes, I'd say so.

[00:02:14] Bronwyn: So it sounds like you're quite busy, so you are actually working in addition to studying.

[00:02:21] Tess: That's right. And I did that... uh, I've been doing that since the very start of my masters, like, uh, because I was work, the workplace I was working in, I was already at. And they, uh, it was, it was quite a natural progression to start as a prov psych with my masters. So I was working before I started placement, which like really helped prepare me for placement. But yeah, I was like straight in pretty much.

[00:02:45] Bronwyn: Wow. So maybe we can start there because that is the start of your journey then, what was it like to be working and studying at the same time? And then in my mind I'm like, that's not even the start of your journey. I'll ask you in a moment what prompted you to study psychology, but just let me know straight off what's it like studying and working at the same time?

[00:03:03] Tess: I actually think it's really good because I'm able to like instantly apply what I'm learning in my coursework at uni, like straight into a practical context, which I guess is the point of placement, but I think... at least the way my uni does it, we don't do placement until second semester. So, but we do most of our coursework in the first semester. So I think I really got the opportunity to like directly apply it straight away. And even I guess some of my discussions or my questions with lecturers were around like real life examples I had, which led to some, I think really like rich and good discussions in class.

So, I think it was really great, but I wouldn't necessarily say that as like a, um, like an overall rule. I think it was just because it was a role that was a very like natural step up from what I had already been doing. Like I couldn't really imagine like working as a prov psych straight away if that wasn't kind of the case. So I think it worked in my situation, but I can see in a lot of cases how it wouldn't as well.

[00:04:07] Bronwyn: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Hearing you talk about it though, it's like you can immediately apply what you're learning to your workplace and vice versa, and it sounds like it made it less daunting when you eventually started your placement.

[00:04:19] Tess: That's right. It, it definitely did. My, my first placement was very different to my work though. Um, my work was more around, uh, assessment based, not really therapy. And then my first placement was with therapy with kids, and I didn't really have any experience with kids. So it still, it still felt daunting, but I felt like I had that backing, like, uh, more of a clinical backing and even just like general workplace experience. Um, so I understood like systems and procedures. So I, I think that made it a little bit more seamless for me, for sure.

[00:04:51] Bronwyn: Sometimes that's half the battle, like learning systems and I guess processes for doing things. So at least that frees up a little bit of your brain space to learn to work with kids, which I also found really daunting when I first started out. It's just a whole new arena. It's like you have to learn all these games and play-based activities to do with kids and yeah, I find that... like I just have flashbacks to me trying to, I think, explain how thoughts work with like a spaghetti colander. I can't remember my exact analogy, but I remember I was failing and, and the kid knew I was failing and I was failing and I was like, oh God, this is so hard.

[00:05:26] Tess: Yeah. Um, it was, yeah, I think that was very similar to my experience working with kids. Like I went way out of my comfort zone. Um, but I think I did pleasantly surprise myself. I didn't really have any interest working with kids. And look, I still think I'm gravitating towards adults, but I enjoyed it way more than I thought I would, which is interesting.

[00:05:45] Bronwyn: No, that's super interesting. So let's jump back, uh, a few steps then, because I do wanna ask you what got you into psychology in the first place? What's the interest? What's the draw card?

[00:05:55] Tess: Well that's, that's a good question and people have asked me this in the past and I never have, uh, a clearer answer. I actually started with law straight outta school and... but I pretty quickly changed to psychology 'cause I was doing some psychology topics as well and it just interested me, interested me so much more. And I think getting my work experience throughout uni, I knew that I had to work in a helping profession, and I was really drawn to a helping profession. I guess what differentiated psychology for me from other helping professions was the, the science component. Like I am, I think I've got a really sciencey brain. I really like, uh, you know, evidence-based type stuff. So I liked the fact that psychology, sort of, was the intersection of that. Like, it was very sciencey, but it was like very person centered as well. Um, and it was sort of in the middle, whereas... and I know there are other helping professions, which are very similar to that, but, uh, for me, I, I was just really drawn to psychology specifically for that reason.

[00:06:57] Bronwyn: When you got into your Masters, do you feel like you had expectations, and if so, were they met when you first started?

[00:07:06] Tess: Yeah, so that was, that's actually a really interesting question because I think my... the reality of Masters has been a lot better than what I expected it to be. And I know a lot of people would probably say different. Um, but for me, I think I just expected it to be a lot more similar to my undergrad and honors... it- it's entirely different. Like just even with the, the structure of the classes and the, the structure of graded work, like nothing's graded in master's, it's all, uh, like competency based, which is actually like really good for someone who's a perfectionist, um, to not be graded on things.

Um, and just how hands on it was and practical and all the assignments, it kind of felt like I was throwing out a lot of like the APA research essay writing skills that, you know, obviously that's relevant for my thesis, but for coursework it was, you know, deliver, you know, administering the WISC with a, you know, like very, very practical assignments, which I really enjoyed, but I didn't expect it be like that, so it was very time intensive, but in a different way than I thought it would be.

[00:08:12] Bronwyn: Can I just clarify, do you not get like distinction, high distinction? It's just competency?

[00:08:17] Tess: I know this isn't the case for every uni, but at least where I am, it's a non-graded pass and it, but it's, the pass level is a 75, so a distinction. But yeah, but we don't get given a grade. Like there's no, it's either like you've passed or you've, you haven't, and if you don't, you just resubmit it. It's a pretty simple process. So no high distinction, distinction, nothing.

[00:08:41] Bronwyn: Wow. And you mentioned like you think that works well for you, like the perfectionist part of you. It's- it's helping out.

[00:08:47] Tess: I like, I think I'll talk about this more in some of the questions you ask me later, but in, in general, I think my master's and provisional psychology journey has actually been amazing for, you know, the unrelenting standards perfectionism in me because like firstly, it's kind of impossible to be perfect at being a psychologist and the non-graded nature of the work means that it... there's just that focus on the skills and the competency, and it's not about doing, you know, the very best in getting the HD or comparing yourself to others. That's just not, I guess, the values underpinning it. So that's really allowed me to focus on the skill development rather than focusing on the grade.

[00:09:28] Bronwyn: No, that's super amazing because yeah, when I did my Master's, it was yeah, grade based, which I think is like, I don't know of any uni that's actually doing the model that you are doing. So this is really new to me and it sounds really exciting, but when I was doing my master's, everybody, yeah, was obsessed with the grade and I feel like it really took away from, look what we're supposed to be doing here is actually learning to do the things like it's good to get a good grade, but doing the things is is is arguably more important.

[00:09:55] Tess: Maybe it's a South Australian thing that, that's, well, I feel very grateful, um, that that's, you know, the way my uni structured it because I think it's just, yeah, made my experience a lot better.

[00:10:05] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. And so, Tess, when we were planning this episode, you were still in your first year of Masters and at the time you mentioned to me that you felt that you had had a big identity shift since starting your masters and you didn't anticipate it would be that big of an adjustment and then off air you are like, hmm, that might have changed. So can you describe what it's been like for you in terms of identity shift?

[00:10:29] Tess: Yeah, it, it is really interesting because I think when we were first in contact, this was something that was really present for me, this idea of this identity shift, and I think it kind of came from the fact that I had this feeling that I always had to be a psychologist. Even when I wasn't at uni or wasn't at work, like I had to have this like professional persona and this idea that, you know, our, our clients could, you know, see us anywhere, particularly like where I live is, it's sort of known for your only two degrees of separation from anyone so.

I, I think I really struggled, like, I think even a few examples of... like, I'd be hanging out with friends and I would say, you know, like a random like flip it comment and they'd be, oh, that's not, like, that's not what a psychologist should say. That's not aligned with, I guess at my professional identity or the, the type of, uh, person that I thought a psychologist should be.

So I think I, it was this difficulty disentangling my personal and my professional identity because I, at that point in time had like a really, like, I think I'd figured myself out pretty well, I had a pretty strong identity. And then it was, yeah, trying to weave in this professional identity and this idea of what a psychologist should be like, how they should act. And when there were parts that were not in alignment, I would, I, I think I struggled with that.

But as we were just talking off air, I think that really rang true, like when I first started my masters, but it's, it really, I think I've more or less resolved that now and I think I've kind of been able to, to separate those more and even realize that, you know, even with clients like yes, you know, having that professional persona is important, but like it's also okay to show your personality, um, et cetera. So I think I'm in a, in a better place with that now, but that's something I really experienced, um, early on in Masters.

[00:12:18] Bronwyn: Yeah. Was there a turning point for you or was it a slow realization?

[00:12:24] Tess: Interestingly, I think it was around the same time I started my first placement with kids. I think that's because like, as we were talking about before with kids, your therapeutic style has to be very, very different. Like you're not, you are obviously having to act quite animated and enthusiastic and um, fun. And I think that kind of made me realize actually having those, uh, qualities and characteristics is actually quite valuable in a therapeutic space. And yes, that applied to kids and teens, but like it also does apply to adults as well.

So I think that made me realize a lot of the parts of who I am, like I'm quite a bubbly and confident person, I can absolutely like bring that into my therapeutic style because I, I think this journey was really just about me find I didn't have a therapeutic style and so I, I think I was getting a bit confused, but now I think I've more or less, you know, starting to find that therapeutic style and, um, yeah. So I, I think that's where the turning point was for me.

[00:13:20] Bronwyn: No, that's really cool. And that makes a lot of sense because when I think of kids, it's like you can't be regimented. You can't sit on the seat and I guess just have that straight back and tone of voice. You are being animated, you are. Putting dinosaur figures in the sand and the kid is telling you, and then the dinosaurs went over here with the Barbie doll and then they're friends... it's like you just have to engage in the in the story sometimes and just think on your feet. You have to be creative and quite playful at times.

[00:13:50] Tess: Yeah. Yeah, exactly right. So I think that was actually a really good experience for me to work with kids and because I was working, uh, on top of placement in more of an adult sense, I think that really helped. 'cause I noticed a big shift in my confidence at work with adults, um, when I was on placement. So that was really interesting.

[00:14:11] Bronwyn: Hmm. That is interesting. So do you still get the, it sounds like when you first described it, you got a feeling of anxiety, say when you're out with friends and then you're like, oh, that's not becoming of a psychologist. Do you still notice those feelings of fear of, or anxiety coming up?

[00:14:27] Tess: Definitely not as often. I think it, it does still come up, occasionally. Um, I think particularly with, I think with friends. 'cause I've always, I think, been known as someone who gives quite direct, like black and white advice with my friends, which is, quite different to what I'm like therapeutically. And so sometimes my friends will make kind of like offhand comments about, "would you say that to one of your clients"? Um, and I think those moments, I, I sometimes think back, oh my gosh, like, that's so true that, you know, that's not very psychologist esque of me. But I think I am realizing now that that's like, that's fine. Like I could have different style at a different approach personally and professionally.

[00:15:11] Bronwyn: I'm laughing because I swear it's like only last week my partner said the same thing to me. And it's like, I've been in this game like years now, and he is like, would you say that to a client? And then sometimes I just stick my heels in, "I'm like, yeah, I would, maybe I would"! I wouldn't. Um, but yeah.

You also mentioned to me that, I guess one perception that you had was that psych should have everything figured out. Life should be figured out, and maybe you felt like that wasn't, I guess, resonating with you. Could you speak a bit more to that?

[00:15:39] Tess: Yeah, I think, um, and I think that was aligning with. guess, yeah, I did have like this idea of what a psychologist should be and I am quite young. I'm- I went straight through to from school to masters. I haven't had any breaks, so I'm like the youngest I could be. Um, so I think that's kind of come along with this idea of, oh, well, you know, I'm quite young, I don't really have life completely figured out yet. Even though from an objective point of view, I'm probably actually doing like, pretty well for my age, um, in terms of having life figured out.

But, I think there was a lot of kind of doubt coming in of like, you know, the type of psychologists I know I wasn't really necessarily aligning with with that or what, or what they're like, or this perception I had of them. But then I think interestingly as I just got to know more psychologists because of my work and placement, I realized that, you know, psychologists are very different with their clients versus what they're like, uh, with, you know, people they know casually. So I think that sort of helped dis-confirm that belief. So yeah, I think that was, yeah, really helpful.

[00:16:43] Bronwyn: That's really good. And maybe we can talk a bit more about just, um, I guess the younger age that you're at, because I have had an episode in the past where we focus specifically on what's it like being a younger psychologist and we tried to bust some myths that people might have around younger psychologists, which is like, you don't have the life experience or clients might judge you. I just wonder like have you felt anybody any judgment for your age or have you felt, oh, maybe I don't have this life experience? Who am I to counsel people about this?

[00:17:12] Tess: I've listened to that episode funnily enough. Yeah. Um, and interestingly, it was something I was worried about, especially with working with kids because, and I, I remember talking to my supervisor early on about like, what do I say when, like, parents ask me whether or not I have kids or say things like, you know, who are you? Like who are you to tell us strategies to help our kid when you are, you know, obviously not a parent yourself, et cetera. Um, but that literally never came up, which is funny.

And I've worked with, you know, clients across the lifespan. Um, I've actually worked with quite a few older adults as well. And I think that's an initial, um, you know, feeling I had of, oh gosh, like what are they, you know, gonna think of me being so young, they're gonna think that I don't understand, um, you know, all the life experiences they've gone through... unless, you know, they're just not reporting it. But I don't think there's been any sort of, I haven't observed any issue with anyone at kind of any different age.

So I think that's been helpful to again, like dis-confirm those sort of beliefs about me being young. And you know what clients might think about that. I think clients probably actually don't know old I am. Like, they like obviously know that I am youngish, but they probably don't know exactly how old I am. And I think people more or less have an understanding that you are a professional and you've done, um, you know, a qualification and you've got expertise in the area of psychology and that's, you know, what they're going to you for, they're not necessarily going to because you have, you know, all this, uh, years and years of life experience and parenting experience, et cetera.

[00:18:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, that would be a very different service. It's like people are coming to us because they're like, can you provide me with a psychological service? And I think more, can you see me as a person? Can you work with me as a human? So can you have that connection with me? And I think, I don't think that's age dependent. It's like you've gone through the training as well as building therapeutic relationships and so, yeah, I, I found similarly, like that was disconfirmed. I started psych when I was 25 and I started working immediately with older adults above 65. And yeah, just disconfirmed every thought that I had about age being an issue.

[00:19:10] Tess: Yeah, exactly. That's been my experience as well.

[00:19:13] Bronwyn: No. Glad to hear. Okay, and one thing we wanted to talk about was imposter syndrome. So I just think of imposter syndrome as really chronic self-doubt that can impair our capacity to do work because we are so doubtful of ourselves and so scared of getting found out for being the fraud that we think we are.

So this can be a big challenge for early career psychs. Is this something that is relevant to you, and if so, what's it look like? How do you manage?

[00:19:40] Tess: Yeah, I think for me, like definitely have imposter syndrome, but I think the way that it shows up for me is a bit different. In sessions with clients or even going into sessions with clients at, definitely not last year, but this year I, I do have a, I do have confidence, like I have confidence in my clinical skills and I'm... more or less know now, uh, how to, you know, respond to clients. And, you know, I have think I have a lot of things in my toolbox that kind of, you know, no matter what client said that I would more or less know something to sort of respond or to, to do in response to that.

Um, but I think where my imposter syndrome is creeping in is I think I have this belief or this worry that I'm actually not helping clients improve. Like the work I'm doing isn't actually the reason that they're improving. If, if clients do improve, I often attribute it to something else like, oh, that's because, you know, this life stressor was reduced. Which, you know, very well could be. But um, I think I'm finding it really hard to believe that my sessions are actually helpful to clients and that they're actually getting anything out of it and improving. I think that's where it's really creeping in for me.

[00:20:50] Bronwyn: And what led you to believe that, like, I guess, conclude that you're not doing anything?

[00:20:55] Tess: I think it was tricky with my first placement because kids progress in a very different way than adults. Like it's often pretty slow progress and the progress might look different. And I was working with a lot of neurodivergent kids where their, um, outcomes and progress might not necessarily show up on things like psychometrics. I think, and that's what I was kind of... 'cause I had low confidence at that stage, it being my first placement, never having worked with kids before. I was sort of, I think needing that sense of validation or reassurance that I was doing a good job or making a difference for these clients. But even though there was so many qualitative changes, it was hard for me to, to take those on if I wasn't seeing that like quantitative change.

So I think that's where it really started for me. And you know, even though I can pretty. Like easily do some thought challenging on myself and know that that's not the case, I think I do, you know, notice that thought creeping in quite a bit with clients.

[00:21:55] Bronwyn: It's a hard one. I remember having the same thought. And yes, we did do an early episode. I think it was titled, am I Helping Anyone, because it's a question that I had. It was one of the first episodes that I did.

Um, but I, I initially came to. Question because of the research actually. So if you look at a pie chart of what influences therapeutic outcome, I think it's like life changes accounts for a significant percentage, and then it's like client readiness, and then another proportion is the therapeutic relationship, but I think it's like 10% or something. So then for me, I was like, oh, the circle says I am doing nothing!

[00:22:31] Tess: Yep... And that's, um, that's almost validating to know because I think it's very true. Um, I, I do think that's very true that sometime well, and I think it, what's been important for me to remember is I am like such a small part of this client's life and this client's world, and it's not my responsibility to completely fix their entire life. And it's thinking about like what purpose or what benefit can I have that's, um, going to help this client in some way? And that might not look like quantitative, you know, reduction of symptoms. Sometimes it might. Um, if all those other factors are at play, there's, you know, no, um, you know, really difficult life circumstances, they're ready to change, et cetera, et cetera. But other times when that's not the case, that might not be the goal, and that's okay. So I think that's what I've been trying to teach myself.

[00:23:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think it's a journey, but it's interesting to hear you come along the way and trying to sort it out in your own mind.

[00:23:25] Tess: Yeah, definitely.

[00:23:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Do you think it might change in the future?

[00:23:29] Tess: Well, yeah. Even interestingly, something I've been doing lately to I guess try and just confirm this belief is I've been... and they really encouraged this at placement, but I think I did avoid it because I'm a bit like scared of feedback. I don't, um, which I think a lot of, you know, people in the profession are, but I've been really forcing myself to ask clients for feedback and it's been a bit of like a second session thing for me. I've been checking in at the end. I'm saying, okay, look, we've had our second session, everyone's got different preferences, different values, what they need out of psychology. I wanna get any feedback from you. How did this, you know, how did this work for you? Is there anything you want me to change? The feedback has been like really good and people have been giving like tangible examples of things that have, you know, helped so far, et cetera, which I think has been good for me to realize, yeah, the type of benefit I'm having.

And I think the other thing has been me remembering and realizing that things that might be like common sense to us as psychologists who have, you know, uh, however many years of training in psychology might not be, that might actually be new information for a client.

[00:24:40] Bronwyn: I remember early on, for people who have never seen a psychologist before or maybe not had any psychoeducation on psychological processes, sometimes explaining to people that perhaps things that happen to you in childhood can impact you in your teens or adulthood can be a real revelation for some people. So we can provide massive benefit to people by being like, huh, this makes sense. And with, with something that might be minor to us.

[00:25:07] Tess: Yeah, exactly. And I think that was a big revelation for me. And even just, uh, I guess like your wellbeing, stuff like, sleep and, um, meaningful activity, engagement and social supports. Um, 'cause sometimes I think, oh, like the information or the, the psychoed or the, the therapy that I'm providing, it's not exactly revoluntionary um, but clients are reporting, at least the feedback I've been getting is that they're, you know, finding that really beneficial because that's not necessarily something that they automatically know the benefits of. So that's been, I think, interesting as well.

[00:25:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I hope that really helps, 'cause I completely agree. I say that all the time and we're giving them tailored education as well, so we're making sure they understand it. So it's like if it's a gap in their knowledge, we're making sure that it's in words that they can understand, an approach they can understand. And so, yeah, I think we have a lot of value, but I completely empathize with you in feeling like sometimes we question, am I actually having an impact here?

[00:26:01] Tess: Yeah, definitely. And I think what I said before about just changing like that goalpost of like what I am expecting clients to, uh, I guess what their outcomes out of therapy to be has helped with that. And I also just need to be realistic that I'm also only in my second year as a provisional psych, and I am not gonna be across, you know, all the skills yet. I'm, I'm still very new, so it's also not necessarily unusual for my client progress to be slower than someone with years of experience.

[00:26:35] Bronwyn: Totally. Yeah, it's such a good point. It's like be kind to yourself with the stage that you're at.

[00:26:39] Tess: Yeah, definitely.

[00:26:41] Bronwyn: So the next question is about pressure, um, because, it's gotten so competitive getting into Masters. Um, like even since I did my master's, I did my master's in 2017, it was still really competitive. I spent years applying to clinical programs before then. I feel like it's just like ultra, ultra, ultra, like 10 times more competitive. Um, so yeah. How, how did you deal with that? How'd that go for you?

[00:27:02] Tess: Yep. Yep. Uh, it was, it was definitely tough, particularly where I live, the masters, like the in-person, master spaces are so limited. So There was, yeah, an enormous amount of pressure, particularly in honors. It really did feel like if you do not do well in honors, like your whole career path is ruined. So I did put so much pressure on myself, um, in honors in particular.

I think what sort of helped me toward the end of honors when applications were coming up is, I think something my uni does well because we offer both the clinical and the MPP program is they took some of that spotlight off. The clinical program like being like the e be all and end all, like, you know, this is what you should be striving towards. I think that was probably, you know, the kind of chatter that we were getting more so in undergrad, just from the general kind of psych community.

But I think that's something my uni did pretty well, particularly in honors, is like these are both incredible pathways. Clinical is great if you're more interested in research or you are more interested in doing like multiple placements rather than an internship. So for me, just opening up those options and I applied to MPPs all over the country because there are so many online options for MPPs. So it just allowed me to open up my, uh, yeah, application options and you know, apply in other states where there were a lot more places available compared to in SA. And I think that really did help with that pressure.

And I really actually didn't mind which one I did. I think the only reason my preference was clinical was because I wanted to do three different placements rather than like do a one year internship. I kind of wanted the diversity and I do have an interest in research, so I kind of wanted to do another thesis. But apart from that, there wasn't like, oh, if I'm not a clinical psychologist, it's gonna be the end of the world.

I think that helped with the pressure. But like as you said, even with the, like the MPP or the clinical program now are both so, so competitive. Um, so there was definitely still that pressure there, but that just helped me kind of disperse and have a few different options available.

[00:29:19] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's, I definitely feel bad for folks these days. I, I just, I just feel like it's almost impossible. Um, but I would recommend that they do what you did, which is apply to lots of different places if possible.

[00:29:30] Tess: Definitely.

[00:29:31] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:29:31] Tess: Because the clinical programs were, almost all of them were in person there aren't, uh, too many unis in SA... so if I had only applied there, I think I would've really struggled with that pressure knowing that I, you know, I'd only had my, uh, a quite small application pool. So the fact I was able to do that, and I think the fact that unis are able to offer those online flexible options now is, is really fantastic. But yeah, in general, I think honors just the... like the comparison to other people and like the checking in around grades, it was, it was really, really tricky. But it's funny how that just like all instantly dissipated in masters because of the way they structure it with the non-graded thing.

[00:30:15] Bronwyn: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that because, um, some people, they do compare themselves to peers and I feel like that's quite natural. It's like you wanna know how you're going, and so one way of doing that is to compare to the people around you. But sometimes that can really get us down because we're paying so much attention to it that maybe if we get five points less than somebody else, we just feel terrible about ourselves. Has this been an issue for you comparing your progress to peers?

[00:30:41] Tess: I think not so much in coursework as much because of, you know, maybe 'cause of the grades and just because of the culture of... my cohort is really lovely. But what's been interesting is our first placement is in a student clinic and we actually all work together, which is actually really lovely. Um, working alongside your peers. And I think that's been, um, tricky because it's pretty natural to compare yourself to your peers when you're literally working in the exact same environment and trying to reach like the same goals regarding competencies, et cetera. So I think that environment, even though I loved it because we could collaborate and we had that peer support, think I did really find myself comparing myself to others which. was hard.

[00:31:26] Bronwyn: It is quite natural and I think, like I don't, I don't know if you could reduce it because it's just a thing that we do, but I guess it's how we manage it and how it connects to our self-esteem. So I guess if you compare, but you're like, okay, I might be different to my peer over here, but that's okay, I'm learning, I feel like you could, I guess, go through that adaptively, but if you're like, I'm different to my peer, I must suck, then that would be bad, right?

[00:31:51] Tess: Yeah, yeah.

[00:31:52] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:31:52] Tess: And I think, I think the thing is with Masters is everyone comes in with a very different experience. Like some people, like some people in my cohort have actually, um, already had full careers in the mental health field or, um, in another similar field or incredibly experienced. Some people, um, are, are like myself and are quite young and quite fresh. Like we've got a really diverse range.

And that's more or less made it easier, um, to not compare myself because I'm like, there's just so much diversity across our cohort. And, it's actually been, I've just tried to use that as an opportunity to more like learn from... learn from my peers and learn from their life and work experiences and, um, yeah, which I think has been really good.

[00:32:39] Bronwyn: I think that's such a helpful way of looking at it, like learning from your peers because you're so right. We all have such different experiences and backgrounds coming to it. We all bring such different things. I bet you with your work, even before the masters, you would bring different things and experiences and knowledge as well, so people can learn from you too. And I think that's such a nice collegial way to look at it rather than adversaries. It's like we're colleagues learning from each other.

[00:33:01] Tess: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think that has been a culture in my cohort, which has been lucky, 'cause you know, some people might have experience in disability or in kids, et cetera, and being able to like leverage each other's strengths and experiences when we were, you know, in that clinic together.

And I guess the other thing with comparison is, my uni as well do the clinical PhD program. So, uh, we've got a bit of a mixed cohort. Some are doing masters, some are doing MPP, some are doing the clinical program. So we're already naturally kind of all at different stages and working towards different things. So that made it a little bit easier as well to not fall into as much comparison because, you know, the clinical PhDs there at a completely different rate than, than we are and, um, you know, they've got another, you know, two years to go after we finish and et cetera. So it was, everyone kind of had different goals, different kind of timelines, even within our cohort, which was yeah, actually helpful.

[00:33:59] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Can we talk a bit about your research?

[00:34:03] Tess: Definitely!

[00:34:04] Bronwyn: Did you choose the topic? Do you love the topic? Tell me.

[00:34:07] Tess: Yes. So I am really interested in perinatal mental health. There's a really fantastic, uh, researcher at Flinders who does a lot around psychosis and working psycho -therapeutically with schizophrenia. And he does, yes, some really, really great work. Um, I just reached out to him and I wanted to see whether he'd be interested in supervising a thesis on postpartum psychosis. So even though he wasn't in the perinatal space, it's still like crossed over with his, I guess, expertise and he was more than happy to. And funnily enough, someone else, my cohort just coincidentally, also reached out to him wanting to, uh, research postpartum psychosis, which is so serendipitous.

So we've been working together and I've just, it's just such an, a great research area because it's just, there's so limited research on it from a psychological perspective and obviously postpartum psychosis and nature of it, um, it's mostly managed, uh, psychiatrically with medication. But what I've been looking at is I guess the psychological impacts of experiencing a postpartum psychosis. So, you know, being, uh, separated from your newborn baby and, most of the women don't actually have a history of, uh, mental health, uh, like mental health difficulties before. So it's okay, you've just had a baby and then you all of a sudden have like a serious psychiatric episode where you end up in inpatient care. Um, and how like, that in itself is so kind of destabilizing to like your sense of self or even your sense of who you are as a new mother, 'cause it mostly happens to first time mothers.

So I've been really looking at that impact and particularly the transition between inpatient care back home when you are, they're suddenly, yep, expected to be a mother to their newborn child and just return back to normal functioning when they've just experienced this really significant psychiatric event. So, that's what I've been looking at, which I've, yeah, I've been absolutely loving.

[00:36:13] Bronwyn: It's such an interesting area and I can just imagine that it'd just be so scary to experience that for the person and the people around them who love them. Um, so it's so valuable, and what great outcomes could be achieved for people who experience postpartum psychosis. Is that a quantitative study or are you doing interviews?

[00:36:34] Tess: I'm doing, uh, well I did the interviews last year, so it's qualitative. There wasn't really enough research to even do anything quantitatively. But the interviews like, have been amazing. So we've interviewed, we actually got so many women, um, who were interested, which was fantastic. So we did, um, about almost 20 women with lived experience.

[00:36:52] Bronwyn: Wow, that's such good numbers.

[00:36:54] Tess: And which they were just like amazing to interview these women. Um, 'cause the episode is, it's usually... it's, it's interesting 'cause it actually affects, um, like well educated, highly, like, high socioeconomic women, which is, I don't, I don't think we really know why, but that's just like the, the demographic seems to, um, affect so, like strangely, there's actually been a lot of psychologists who have experienced postpartum psychosis, who we've interviewed.

So it's just been so amazing to do these interviews with, um, with these women who have kind of come out the other side of this and just wanting to, I guess, hear like their opinions and thoughts of what they would've liked to receive in treatment to make their experience a bit better.

[00:37:40] Bronwyn: A really exciting area. Thanks to Tessa's participants. I love getting people's experiences. It's such a great way to involve people in research through qualitative interviews because yeah, you just get really to see them as people and hear their experiences in depth. Um, and, yeah, just think it's awesome.

I'm just curious to know like how have you gone with learning qualitative methods? The reason why I ask is because I did my PhD quantitatively. So like literally my PhD was spreadsheets with like 40,000 rows, and I got good at working with that sort of data and then I learned qualitative analysis last year and I was like, what is this? What is these philosophical underpinnings? What is epistemology? What is ontology? I don't know anything, so how'd you go?

[00:38:23] Tess: Uh, yep. I feel like my experience is very similar to yours. I had never done any qualitative stuff before and I still feel like I'm just kind of making it up, like it doesn't feel, um, like we're doing thematic analysis.

Yep. like I've done, you know, the, the research and understanding of like, the, the process for it, but it, it truly just feels like I'm kind of making it up as I, as I go along, which is so different to quant research.

But I think it's been good. Like I, there's been some, there are some people at uni who, uh, are more experienced in it than me, which has been helpful to learn from them. But yeah, it's, it's interesting. I can't say which one. I feel like, uh, with quantitative stuff, I'm, it's almost like I don't even know if I would remember how to do that now 'cause it's completely outta my mind from, from, honors. But I, I, I've enjoyed the qual stuff more than I thought I have, but it was definitely a journey to wrap my head around.

[00:39:23] Bronwyn: Totally. It's such a journey, but well done. Like, you know, it's doing a thematic analysis. It's a real big deal, so congratulations. Well done. Yeah. And I hope it goes well with your research. Um, are you thinking about doing a PhD in the future? I know it's early days, but just asking?

[00:39:37] Tess: Um, my supervisor does want me to, um, but look, I won't say I definitely not anytime soon. I'm keen to work full time and because I, 'cause I am young, I have, I haven't ever just worked full time and not studied. So I'm keen to not study for a little while, but I definitely wouldn't rule out a PhD, especially because I'm really interested in this research area. But yeah, can't say for sure.

[00:40:06] Bronwyn: To be confirmed. Yeah. No, that's so cool. Tess, is there anything else about your journey which you wanted to share with listeners?

[00:40:15] Tess: I really wish that I... from the start was just kind of slowing down a little bit. I think I put a lot of pressure on myself to kind of like know how to do everything right away and like have all the clinical skills and know even like multiple therapies. Like I feel like I'm even feeling that now, um, 'cause I've kind of got more or less a grip on CBT. I'm like, oh well I need to, you know, learn ACT and DBT now and et. I, I think I just need to keep reminding myself that I, I can need to slow down and master one thing at a time, and I don't need to know how to do everything or be perfect to everything yet I, I can, like, it's okay, like I'm, I'm in my training period. It's actually the time to, to do that and to slow down. So I think that's, I guess something I, I wish I had known beforehand to slow down. And that's okay.

[00:41:07] Bronwyn: Is that like a, a 'you' pressure or do you feel like, like genuine question. Do you feel like the environment you're in is like pressuring you to get more therapies, like you have to be this thing or is it a combination?

[00:41:19] Tess: I think it's a me pressure.

[00:41:21] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:41:22] Tess: Even at uni, like we, it's been like most master's degree, a CBT focused course, but it, it has been good that they've been bringing in other therapies as well. And not necessarily to teach us those other therapies, but just to introduce like. What they are, what they're useful for, and kind of give us a bit of a taster for them, like in the future, like if we might wanna go down the track of doing further training in other modalities, which I think has actually been really nice.

[00:41:49] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:41:50] Tess: When I get those tasters I'm like, oh, that sounds really good. Like I wanna go like learn that now or, even in, you know, like talking about in groups of visions, like, and people are talking about the different kind of approaches they're taking. I'm, oh, like that would be, you know, really great to know. Or even with like my perinatal interest, I wanted, I so badly wanna work in that, but I've been like very actively, like, I think I... it's really important. I get generalist experience first before I niche, so I'm... I feel like I'm always just like racing, like, in honors it was like, oh, it's just, it'll be fine. Once I'm in my masters and now it's like, oh, as soon as I get registered and I'm sure it's when I'm in my registrar, it's, oh, as soon as I get my endorsement, like it feels like I just wanna stay a bit more in the moment instead of always thinking about what's next professionally.

[00:42:34] Bronwyn: Mm. So what would you say to somebody who's listening who might be at a similar stage to you and they're feeling exactly the same way? They're like, oh, I've gotta get this therapy. I've gotta get that therapy. I've gotta do that now. I've gotta do everything now. What would you say to them?

[00:42:45] Tess: Oh, I don't know because I feel like I still need someone to tell me that. Um, I feel like I would just say that you can't get good at 10 things at once. Like if you, if it's your goal to become a good clinician and to become skilled at what you do, it's, it's actually really important to practice one, you know, one technique at a time. Have a kind of a goal for this is what I wanna... this particular skill is what I wanna work on. And actually intentionally practice that skill rather than trying to master 20 things at once or you know, however many modalities at once. And that's actually gonna be the, the most effective way to become a good clinician.

 There was a time I was doing two placements at once and I was seeing like so many different clients, like so much diversity, which is amazing. But it sort of made me realize it's so hard for me just to get good at one thing because I'm trying to like learn from the very beginning how to work with like a super diverse range of clients. Which has its benefits. But yeah, I feel like I'm not like good at any one thing because I've had like so much diversity.

[00:43:56] Bronwyn: Yeah, I feel like a lot of people can relate to that, and I certainly can relate to that. It does feel like early on you've gotta know a different approach for every client, and sometimes it's warranted. I remember, I guess, being, really scared of grief in working with grief. And I was like, oh crap, what's the model for this? Oh crap, it's not CPT. What do I do?

There's just so much to learn, but I feel like we can fall back on some common factors, but I feel like we need maybe a good supervisor to help tease that out for us so they can be like, look, here's where you can cut through. So you don't need to learn a different approach for A, B, C client, you can actually cut through with say, acceptance and commitment therapy, but emphasizing these aspects.

[00:44:33] Tess: And that's exactly right, and I've been really grateful to have so many amazing supervisors who have given me advice just like that.

[00:44:41] Bronwyn: Oh, awesome. I'm so glad. Yeah. 'cause yeah, otherwise you can, your brain can just run away with itself.

[00:44:45] Tess: Definitely.

[00:44:46] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, Tess, is there anything else that you wish you had known before starting your provisional psych journey?

[00:44:52] Tess: just like, kind of what I was talking about before, in regard to it actually being a really experience to, perfectionists, perfectionists and people with unrelenting standards to actually start to, yeah, dis-confirm some of those beliefs and actually get some like exposure to experiences where you will be exposed to a lot of feedback. Um, and, uh, a lot of, particularly in masters, there's a lot of scrutiny over your work. Like every single case note you do is checked. There's video reviews of your sessions like. Supervisors are acutely aware of kind everything they're doing and it's natural to get feedback and it's also very natnatural to not berfect at everything because psychology is complex and every individual client is complex. And you could be a perfect psychologist for one client, but another client could absolutely hate your approach. So, um, it's, I, I actually think that's been amazing for me because I realize even if I am, like at my clinical best, a client still might not like that approach.

[00:45:57] Bronwyn: Totally, and it might have nothing to do with you as well. It might be that they're cranky that day or that you remind them of an ex that they no longer speak to, and that's why they don't like air quote, like your approach.

[00:46:09] Tess: So I think that's been great. And even like with supervisors, like I've had... 'cause of work and my different placements, I've had so many supervisors and even supervisors giving like different advice on like similar issues and me realizing there's actually not like, any one right answer. Um, like different clinicians are gonna approach this in different ways. I think that's been really helpful as well, knowing, yeah, it's actually about my own therapeutic style rather than like the right or perfect thing.

[00:46:36] Bronwyn: Such important things. Uh, you will have heard me say in the podcast, 'cause you listen to the podcast that it's like a lot of us therapists have unrelenting standards that perfectionism, um, so it's such an important thing for us to deal with and I think even reminding ourselves that this is a really complex skillset that we are learning. So that's why you get lots of feedback as well, because it's so complex and everyone just wants to help you. Like, that's it. They're not trying to tear you down as a person. They're actually trying to build you up.

[00:47:01] Tess: Exactly.

[00:47:02] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:47:03] Tess: That's been my exact experience with supervisors. Like I have, I felt like I haven't got any, uh, like really critical or harsh feedback. The feedback has been, yeah, as you said, just to help me grow and develop, um, which is, yeah, really lovely. But it's been good like, getting exposure at opportunities of actually getting that direct feedback. So I'm like, this is actually not a bad thing. Feedback actually really important for growth.

[00:47:26] Bronwyn: Yeah, so important. Tess, it's been such a pleasure speaking with you. I feel like you're so articulate and reflective about all of all of your journeys, so thank you so much. What do you, um, want to leave listeners with today? If they only remember one thing, what do you want them to take away?

[00:47:42] Tess: Maximize, the, um, the collaboration and the peer support that you have in Masters. I think I can see myself like kind of taking that for granted now and then I think once I leave, especially if people go out into, you know, private practice where they might be more siloed, um, I think that is just such an amazing part of Masters having that peer support and that community and I really hope that like we're able to hold onto that. And I, um, you know. Stay close with a lot of my, um, cohort because I think it's been such a, an amazing thing. So I think yeah, not taking that for granted and to build those connections and those networks within your discipline.

[00:48:20] Bronwyn: Mm. Beautiful. Tess, if listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:48:26] Tess: Yeah, definitely just on LinkedIn would be the best way. Just Tess Rutherford. Um, yeah, anyone can feel free to message me. Um, if like any, particularly any questions about like master's applications because I applied to so many places, I feel like I'm really all over that stuff. So please feel free to reach out.

[00:48:44] Bronwyn: Wonderful. Tess, thank you so much for coming on the podcast again. I just feel like it's been awesome and yeah, what a great conversation with you. So thank you.

[00:48:52] Tess: Oh, well thank you so much for having me, Bronwyn. Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[00:48:55] Bronwyn: Listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, please follow Mental Work on your favorite podcast app. Leave us a rating and review and share it with someone who might need it. So if you have an early career colleague in your life or someone who's thinking of applying for the Psychology Masters, or any psychology pathway, check this podcast in their ears. It's the best way to get the podcast out there, and your support helps us really keep these important conversations going. That's a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to Mental Work. I'm Brendan Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.