Where are you on the burnout continuum? (with Matthew Jackson)

[00:00:04] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about a little concept called the burnout continuum.

Burnout isn't just an end state. It's a process that we can enter way earlier than we realized, even in the honeymoon phase of a job. If you've ever wondered whether you're just stressed or actually burning out, this episode will help you spot the signs, understand where you might sit on the burnout continuum, and learn what you can do before burnout becomes your norm.

Here to help us out with this topic is our return guest, Matthew Jackson, and Matthew, this episode is coming off the back of a very successful two part episode series on your burnout journey. We got a lot of good feedback for that.

[00:00:48] Matthew: Yeah, I was, uh, reflecting to you, uh, recently that, uh, it, it was slightly overwhelming the amount of messages that I received, uh, the day of, or days later after, you know, part one and part two came out. Um, just people sort of reflecting that like, oh, I, I didn't know that that's how burnout could affect people, or, I think I need to take a break now. So it was, uh, I guess the, the topic of burnout and the way that you and I spoke about it, it must have resonated in people to the point where these discussions are, uh, kind of blowing up. It's, it's really cool.

[00:01:24] Bronwyn: Yeah, I feel like those episodes really gave a voice to, yeah, the little voice inside people's heads and they're like, maybe something isn't going well for me, maybe it is burnout, but maybe I haven't wanted to acknowledge it. And you gave them that language to acknowledge it.

[00:01:37] Matthew: Ah, I, I hope so.

[00:01:39] Bronwyn: I hope so. That's just a guess.

[00:01:42] Matthew: I hope so. It's, it's a, you know, we'll explore this more in this session, but it is there and it'll always be there. So we, we kind of gotta sort of confront it in some way, right?

[00:01:53] Bronwyn: Yeah, yeah I mean, all the alternative is ignoring it and just getting worse, and then feeling worse and feeling crap.

[00:01:59] Matthew: It's a great alternative that I'm sure we've all done a million times.

[00:02:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. So off the back of that, we really wanted to explore this concept that you've been thinking a lot about lately, which is called the burnout continuum. And it's something that you've been looking at in your work and you wanted to tell listeners more about it, right?

[00:02:15] Matthew: Yes. So, uh, I guess this really did originate from my own experiences of burnout and I wanted to find out beyond, you know, what are the, like self-care practices that we can all do, I wanted to find out what the research actually knew about burnout theory and model-based.

[00:02:34] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:02:34] Matthew: So there are, I feel like countless models, I'm like looking at them on my computer. There's kind of too many to actually count, but there is one that has taken my fancy called, um, the Five Stages of Burnout. Uh, I guess I like the term burnout continuum so that it can kind of give you permission to oscillate, uh, between the different stages.

Um, but this was something created by Dr. Paula Redmond. She's a psychologist herself, and is essentially all about how burnout is created day one, and it lasts until, well day, forever, until like the very, very end of your career, if you will.

[00:03:18] Bronwyn: Okay, so you can start off at number one stage of the burnout continuum. Like when you start work, are you already in burnout?

[00:03:26] Matthew: Yeah!

[00:03:27] Bronwyn: Oh, okay. Sure.

[00:03:28] Matthew: Like it's an interesting idea, right? A lot of the other models, uh, or stages essentially are all about how like burnout occurs when you're taking on too much and you're not prioritizing your own needs. You don't feel perhaps psychologically safe enough to say, I'm, I'm drowning over here. I'm, I'm not coping. This model is quite different to that. It's this idea of like, stage one is, uh, named as the honeymoon stage.

[00:03:57] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:03:58] Matthew: And it's described as this stage that we enter in, into day one of a new workplace, and it's filled with enthusiasm, optimism, um, commitment, uh, like drive to prove oneself. And so then that kind of feeds into this theory of, well, maybe that's where burnout starts.

[00:04:20] Bronwyn: Oh?

[00:04:20] Matthew: Right? It, it-

[00:04:21] Bronwyn: We're trying really hard.

[00:04:23] Matthew: Right, right. It's like we wanna impress people and make our bosses or managers, you know, know that, oh yeah, you did make the right decision in choosing me. And we do, uh, even during that onboarding stage, uh, we do kind of tend to take on a little bit. More than perhaps what we usually would, I've observed for myself and yeah, I've observed for myself, colleagues and students that I've supervised that there is that like, oh yeah, I'll take them on. I'll, I'll see that client. Or, um, perhaps if you work in kind of more project work, it's like, yeah, I'll take on that project even though I'm full, my calendar's full and you've got like, you know, seven or eight clients, it's like, no, I'll take on another one. It's fine.

[00:05:02] Bronwyn: Like I wanted to be seen as like a team player. I'm flexible. I'm cool. I'm with it. It's like you wanna have that nice perception.

[00:05:09] Matthew: Yes. Right. And you, you are in a new workplace in and of itself that is so exciting. And so of course you're bursting with enthusiasm. That positive feeling is more likely to like, encourage you-

[00:05:24] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:05:24] Matthew: -to, to maybe, you know, um, let down a few, a few boundaries and walls and, and say yes to things that maybe you wouldn't usually.

So I really like this idea of, um, burnout occurring day one. It's just more of like a, a honeymoon phase, right? It, it comes across as like, okay, this is a new workplace, new people, perhaps new clients, uh, you know, if, if you're doing like clinical work, um, this is all new. This is exciting. And what do you do with that excitement though?

[00:05:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, I'm really liking this concept of the continuum versus just being in burnout or not in burnout, now that you've spoken about it because I recall working with clients and they're like, oh, I'm still burnt out, like it's a disappointment. And it's because I think we're thinking of it as in burnout or not in burnout, whereas if we think of it as a continuum, it's like we can move back and we can move forward. I think it's just less, um, perhaps we can be less judgey towards ourselves and more accepting. I don't know.

[00:06:26] Matthew: I, I really loved that.

[00:06:28] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:06:29] Matthew: It's why I am, um, using that language. I don't think I've coined it. I hope I'm not, um, poaching on anyone's trademark here. I'm sure, I'm sure I will get some letter in the mail if I am. Um, but it's why I prefer that language around like a continuum. That idea that we, um, we move back and forth in the same day, maybe even the same minute, like maybe one minute we're fine, and then the next minute where, you know, kind of, uh, stage three, which is like. Chronic stress, we'll come to that. Um, but that we can move and that it's, okay. I feel like it's permission giving. It's a lot less judgmental, as you said, and it does put a lot more... maybe onus is the word I'm looking for, a lot more onus on the process of burnout rather than you are not like, I don't know, you're not working hard enough, or you're not self caring enough, or you're not self caring the right way, whatever that means. I feel like it takes, yeah, that onus, that blame off of you and puts it onto the process of, well, this is what working is like, right. It's a natural part of working.

[00:07:30] Bronwyn: Okay. Yeah, I quite like that. So we've got stage one where we're basically trying really hard and in the midst of that we might be ignoring our own needs or letting some boundaries down to, to be the cool person, to be the team player, um, to, yeah, 'cause we're so excited and stuff.

[00:07:46] Matthew: yes, and this is usually that stage as well where like, um, ideas of self-care and rest are most applicable, right? Like if I take out all of these different burnout models, um, or theories. And if I look at how burnout functioned for me, which is what the last two episodes were about, uh, between you and I, if I look at all of that and put it together, I can observe that, um, you know, short term self-care, totally appropriate. There's so much research on it. We love it. It really does fit into the honeymoon stage though, it doesn't fit into the, like, really extreme burnout end of that continuum. It doesn't, uh, work enough.

[00:08:31] Bronwyn: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:32] Matthew: And so yes, this stage, um, or this placement if you will, is like lots of enthusiasm, lots of excitement. You're fresh, you new, you're energetic, and if there are symptoms or signs of that burnout occurring, that's where that self-care and rest is probably the most effective.

[00:08:49] Bronwyn: Yeah, so I can be like, look, if I've slipped into checking my emails at night, then I can recognize that and pull back and be like, hey, I am gonna not check my emails after five. And so that could be a boundary setting practice with yourself.

[00:09:02] Matthew: Exactly, and it might not cause as much like tension or use as much brain power because you've got the enthusiasm, you have the energy, like you can make that, uh, those boundaries work for you. Compared to when you're in that like very extreme end of burnout and you, you can't even plan, like planning or even the idea of putting in boundaries is almost impossible for the brain.

So, yeah, and it makes more sense to me that we enter this idea of burnout in like day one, it's a honeymoon stage. Everything looks beautiful and blossoms and sunshine, uh, and that self-care would be the way to go through that.

[00:09:43] Bronwyn: Okay. And then what's stage two or phase two and how might we enter it?

[00:09:48] Matthew: So that is referred to as the onset of stress. So this is one that I feel like a lot of people would be able to recognize probably really quickly. So I'll read the description and, um, maybe if you're listening along, put your hand up as soon as I, as-

[00:10:05] Bronwyn: -while listening, put your hand up. If you're on the train. Hand up.

[00:10:08] Matthew: Put your hand up. Okay.

[00:10:09] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:11] Matthew: Um, safely, safely, please. so the description for onset of stress is, uh, essentially what you're looking at is stagnation, reduced productivity, anxiety, irritability, this sense of like, I'm overworked. Um, maybe even this feeling of. Uh, like rush or I have to get things done really, really quickly. Um, I've got too much on my plate. I've just gotta get it done. I can't talk to you today. I can't look at my messages, ex- uh, et cetera, et cetera. So this second, uh, phase or stage, whatever you'd like to call it, is more of this onset of stress beginning to occur.

[00:10:49] Bronwyn: Okay. And what does that look like for you? Like do you feel that stage mirrored your burnout?

[00:10:54] Matthew: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think that's why I like that idea of like, put your hand up because it's even just the word of like stagnation, totally, right. It's like the same thing, day in, day out. I'm bored, right? And so now I need to entertain myself, that in itself is gonna reduce my productivity. Uh, but if I'm not managing like my diary or my workload, well, of course I'm gonna feel stressed and anxious, and I'm going to become more irritable as a result of that.

So, uh, if I think about those descriptions and I think about where I was at the beginning of my burnout, that was me probably every day. That was me every single day, day in, day out for like the eight hours that I worked that day. That was me. And it really did, it affected my mental clarity. But I think also, uh, maybe for a better lack of term, my, like emotional stability or, or ability to regulate my emotions.

[00:11:51] Bronwyn: Well, yeah, it does sound like in that stage you'd just be a... perpetually shitty is the word that's coming to my mind. It's just like, you'd just be irritable. You'd be like, don't talk to me. Like just a little bit on edge. Just like, oh, this is too much. Yeah, you're just not happy.

[00:12:05] Matthew: No, and we know that... Like we know, uh, or something that we know about stress from the research is how this then plays out in like our everyday life. So if I think about how stress played out for me, it was, uh, not seeing my family and friends as much, not engaging with them, um, which I think I spoke about maybe more so in the part two.

Um, things like maybe skipping meals or turning up to work late. Maybe staying back because you've got like notes to do or something if you work clinically. Uh, so it's that like you, you are adding extra, but you're also not getting extra out of it. You're giving more than you're taking perhaps.

[00:12:47] Bronwyn: Not very satisfying. Do you feel like in this phase there's a reduction in how meaningful you find your work? Or is that in future phases or doesn't really come into it at all?

[00:12:56] Matthew: I think that's definitely there probably throughout. I think the model itself would probably argue that comes in later. I would argue it's maybe there from like onset of stress onwards, right? Like if the job is starting to impact you and self-care is starting to take a backseat, that is gonna have a huge impact on, well, like where, where you sit, I guess, like how you function.

[00:13:27] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:13:27] Matthew: Yeah, I'm trying to think of the like best word. I think of it as like, uh, this is my own description. It's gonna make no sense to no one else.

[00:13:37] Bronwyn: That's what we love on a podcast for many people.

[00:13:40] Matthew: Good. I'm so glad no one will understand this description.

[00:13:42] Bronwyn: But say it anyway.

[00:13:45] Matthew: Um, I found that like, at this stage, burnout affected me spiritually. So, um, hopefully I'll explain what I mean, but hopefully that does, uh, make sense to some people listening. What I mean by burnout affected me spiritually is that, uh, the way that I viewed the profession started to become heavily impacted and my thoughts were like very negatively skewed, but also my ability as a psychologist, even just in the room, like in therapy with a client, um, I, my confidence was, uh, completely shattered and I found myself like wanting to escape. Escape problems with clients. Like, almost like, oh, let's avoid that one because I don't even want to talk about that. Um, so that's what I mean by spiritually.

[00:14:34] Bronwyn: That really resonates with me. I feel like, yeah, that's not a you thing. That totally resonates with me. I completely resonate with wanting to stay outta difficult areas with clients, and it just like my awkward transitions and it's like, Ah-huh. Okay. Hearing that. Okay, moving on.

[00:14:49] Matthew: Yeah. Right. Um, okay. I like that there's something there for me to explore further. Why do I feel like no one would understand that? That's interesting. But anyway, um, yeah, so I, I think like, coming back to your question, this is probably the stage or phase, whatever you'd like to refer to it as where that like, um, uh, burnout impacting your spirituality begins.

[00:15:11] Bronwyn: Okay, and let's move on to phase three because you know, phase two sounds pretty bad. Like you talking about that I'm already like, this is pretty serious. So what's phase three and how do we get into it?

[00:15:26] Matthew: Well, do you know what, in reflection, I would say that like, uh, the kind of stage two and stage three are probably the ones that are insidiously, normalized.

[00:15:38] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:15:39] Matthew: So onset of stress. And then the second one, or the third one here, sorry, is, uh, chronic stress. And so I feel like they're insidious. I feel like, um, if a colleague was to say to me, I'm feeling stressed, I think I would probably respond with like, oh, me too. Like it's, it's a part of the culture of working almost. And so, like in this forum, yes, it is super concerning and there's probably a degree of, yeah, but that's like every workplace, right? Like, oh, I feel like, oh yeah, I do get stressed, or I do feel frustrated, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I think like, um, this sort of stage two and stage three are very, sort of similar in that sense.

[00:16:21] Bronwyn: I totally agree with you. I'm thinking of a scenario where you're coming out of the honeymoon phase of thinking, this job is great. I'm so enthusiastic. Everything is awesome. And then you might get a bit disillusioned or you feel a bit stressed and then somebody else comes along and is like, dude, every job is like this. You're not gonna love it 100% every day. And kind of minimizes or diminishes your experience by normalizing it and being like, what, did you expect that it was gonna be rain bears and butterflies every day?

[00:16:48] Matthew: Completely. So now put up your other hand if that's an experience that you've also had as a psychologist.

[00:16:55] Bronwyn: Yeah. It'd be like this for everyone. Quit your bitching.

[00:16:59] Matthew: Yes, literally. Um, I think I was, uh, ref- similarly referring to that in like the part two last time that, um, I had expressed my burnout to my supervisor and the, the comment back to me was like, all psychologists experience this, you need to learn to see seven to eight clients a day. It's how it is.

So, um, and I might have mentioned that in the part two, I might not have, but, uh, that is the, the message, right, that I would say probably most psychologists are receiving, um, and wouldn't put it past us to then, uh, look at this onset of stress and chronic stress and think okay, and?

[00:17:38] Bronwyn: Oh, it's such a... My heart really goes out to you and to anybody else who has experienced that, because I think it is such a toxic message because you're probably already feeling crap about yourself and feeling crap throughout your day. And then to have somebody who you respect or a senior to you, say to you, you just need to buckle up essentially and do better. I could just only imagine the inadequacy and further dejection that you would feel.

[00:18:04] Matthew: Completely. I think my schemas loved that supervision session.

[00:18:10] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:18:11] Matthew: Uh, yeah, a, a few of those little patterns in the background there were like, that's really juicy, let's really hone in and believe that, um, because you, you know, you are inadequate, you are a failure, remember? So, uh, yeah, I, I would totally caution other supervisors, being a supervisor myself now, I would totally caution other supervisors just around their responses to, to students, or, um, colleagues, uh, mentioning the word burnout to them. It doesn't have to be such a, like gross term. It really is okay for us to talk about burnout. It's actually okay.

[00:18:49] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I mean, that's what we've been wanting to do with these episodes and partially why you shared your story as well to help talk about this experience, which does seem to be so taboo, and we just hold it silently until we explode. Uh, like the, yeah.

[00:19:03] Matthew: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:03] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:19:05] Matthew: I love that. So, coming back to this, um, maybe phase three, if you will.

[00:19:10] Bronwyn: Oh, yes. Phase three. Yeah.

[00:19:11] Matthew: Uh, chronic stress, so, um, typically in this position, this is, uh, probably where that like spirituality component comes out. So you, uh, maybe noticing yourself, feeling a lot more frustrated, neglecting your own personal needs. Perhaps your values are starting to be impacted now. Mm, um, and feeling quite resentful. So, uh, it's why I use that word, spirituality there. I feel like the resentfulness towards psychology, for me, again, from my own experience, uh, really was from like my soul being like, I can't handle this, but I'm being told it's normal. I hate psychology for doing this to me, right? There's that resentfulness that begins, I think.

And we tend to find as well that that anxiety that, uh, begins in that onset of stress starts to impact or dominate daily experiences, right? So you'll find yourself, uh, removing yourself further from social activities and pouring all of your energy into work just to keep up with the demands. So that really came through very intensely for me, where I took like a break from all friends, but also like from drag something I was incredibly passionate about and I just worked more because I thought that like that's what I needed to do to fight burnout.

[00:20:31] Bronwyn: Yeah. Can you take us through the logic of that? Like what, why in your mind were you like, okay, the solution is working more, like what was driving that for you?

[00:20:40] Matthew: I think it really was that defectiveness shame schema.

[00:20:44] Bronwyn: I see.

[00:20:45] Matthew: And that, again, that communication of like, you know, you need to do better, you need to try harder because I'm seeing seven to eight clients a day, why can't you? That really does play on that, okay, so the problem's me, I've understood that I'm now gonna sacrifice even more of me just to meet that standard that you have.

[00:21:05] Bronwyn: Okay. I understand. So it's like, I am the problem. I'm the inadequate one here. Therefore, if I work harder, then I can redeem myself and not be inadequate. Everything will be better.

[00:21:14] Matthew: Right. And even when I did do that, even when I actually did do that, I still didn't receive anything from, you know, management or my supervisor, there, there wasn't anything of like, wow, you work really hard, good job, or like, thank you for that. It was like, oh... ah, why do I feel like I actually am the problem in this, but not in the way that I first convinced myself I was.

[00:21:36] Bronwyn: Oh, so no relief. Yeah. How awful.

[00:21:39] Matthew: Yeah. I think that really comes through with this, um, phase or yeah, moving into this, uh, component, that chronic stress that, um, maybe a lot of those schemas will start to come out. It, it's not just anxiety, it's not just nervousness. Maybe it is a lot of more of those like deeper, uh, patterns and childhood experiences that are starting to play out.

[00:22:04] Bronwyn: I remember when we recorded the episodes, you spoke a lot about physical health, like pain, uh, yeah, body ache, stuff like that. Does this come into this stage or is it the next stage? This chronic stress stage?

[00:22:18] Matthew: Uh, no. I feel like it does, right? That idea of like, well, I guess the next stage a little bit too in reflection, but definitely it's starting in this one. That like neglecting personal needs and it's starting to impact your values. Um, if I think about like the mental component of burnout, there's that like spacing out, right? And not being present to your body. So in that sense then, uh, yeah, no wonder I was starting to tune into pain. 'cause it's like, well for how long has this been here for, and how long have I been ignoring it, right?

Um, but even the physical components or like lack of sleep, even if I did get sleep, I wasn't rested, um, and just physical muscle exhaustion. I think that is a component of burnout that does occur here, and it just worsens when you get to like the next phase, but it starts here because you are personally neglecting your needs, right?

And I think that, you know what, let's open up something else here, I think that that is another important part of burnout that perhaps. Is not in the research as much is like, um, research has defined burnout really well. We've got multiple models. I can see them on my computer screen. There's so many, but we haven't actually talked about the components of burnout, right?

Like there's the physical, there's the emotional, what about the social components, right, of like feeling alone. So it's not just like distancing yourself from people, but feeling alone, feeling alienated. Um, I know I felt myself like, why is, like, why is this happening to me? It's something I'm doing wrong. Like, other psychologists are able to do this, why can't I do this? So it's like a, almost like a callousness towards yourself.

[00:24:01] Bronwyn: Yeah, I agree. I do think, 'cause I've seen lots of models of burnout as well, and you know, like you and I, we would've both worked with clients on, on burnout and so, you know, we are pretty well versed in burnout as psychologists, like theoretically. Um, and something that I notice in the models as you're talking about that would be, I recall one model where it's like loss of self-esteem and it's literally just a one-liner, but it doesn't go into any depth about what that might look like. And the models talk about being cynical a lot and they're like, oh yes, you'll be disillusioned and cynical. So it talks about those beliefs towards the workplace, but it doesn't talk about beliefs towards yourself. And I do agree that that's a really important component, and the social aspect I think, is completely ignored as well.

[00:24:41] Matthew: Yes. Right. So, okay. Going off of what you are saying there too, right? What about like the existential component of burnout?

[00:24:48] Bronwyn: Oh God, that's not even talked about. I've never seen it.

[00:24:51] Matthew: Yeah, right? Like that reduced sense of personal accomplishment, right? Um, like feeling like nothing matters that's very value related, but, and spiritual, but is also that existential component. Like, nothing matters, what I'm doing does not matter. Right. And I definitely got to that component. I really got there.

[00:25:11] Bronwyn: I've totally been there as well, and I wish like it had been picked up and I wish we could have... I wish it was more of a component. I remember going into group supervision when I was burnt out and I was talking about a particular case, and I went on a bit of a rant. It probably didn't sound like a rant, but in my head it was different to how I usually speak and it was along the lines of... why am I even doing this with this client? Like they're going to go do this and it'll make no difference and nothing even matters. So I was exactly saying what you were saying and everybody was just kind of like, okay.

And I wish like the group had picked it up and discussed it further. I wish they knew that that was a sign of burnout because I left that supervision session being like, hey, I was really weird there. I just went on this rant like of meaningless and nothingness. Um, and yeah, nobody said anything, so yeah, I, I'm glad we're talking about it, is the conclusion of that.

[00:26:00] Matthew: Yes. Good.

[00:26:01] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:26:03] Matthew: Yeah, me too.

[00:26:03] Bronwyn: Thanks bringing it up.

[00:26:05] Matthew: No, I'm, I'm glad too. 'cause there are those key components where perhaps we might miss them in like group or individual supervision. Even in just like case consultation, we might miss those phrases that we use. I think even like, um, there's that emotional component as well, right? Like you mentioned cynicism or being cynical, there's all that, is this therapy actually meaningful at all for the client, but also like, what am I getting out of it too? Um, what am I missing from sessions or am I taking over them?

And then, uh, what about the environmental component? Right, so the, uh, decreased ability of, uh, psychological flexibility, right? Being able to understand that, um, you know, I don't have to take this home from work or what was said to me at work, it doesn't have to leave here. It, it doesn't mean you know, more, uh, than what my brain is telling me that it means. But that ability to be that non-stick pan is heavily reduced and so your environment greatly impacts you and you just, your pan sticks. Everything sticks.

[00:27:12] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense to me, 'cause it's like your cognitive capacity is reduced when you are in chronic stress. And it's like we rely on having good cognitive capacity to filter out information, to be able to shift our attention. And when that's impacted, everything just sticks, like you say.

[00:27:30] Matthew: Completely. So I think, uh, something that's really coming from this discussion for me is that, uh, maybe there's stages of burnout or maybe there's this continuum. You know, maybe there are signs and symptoms that are quite common, or again, quite personal. But something that we perhaps haven't explored enough is the components of what actually makes burnout. Like it, it can't just be, oh, I don't wanna get up in the morning and go to work that like, it's more than just that feeling and it has to be.

[00:28:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's a very complex phenomenon. I don't think it's simple, like we've reduced it down to simplicity for the models so that we can generally understand it, we can measure and test it, but it is a complex phenomenon.

[00:28:14] Matthew: It is.

[00:28:15] Bronwyn: So let's move along then to phase four, and we've got five phases in this burnout continuum, don't we?

[00:28:20] Matthew: Correct. Yes. So phase four, think of this as like, now we're starting to move into the red, right? Maybe we started off in like green and then yellow, then orange. Now we're in the red, right? So this phase is, uh, labeled as burnout. This is what burnout is.

So, uh, when burnout does fully set in, we typically feel emotionally numb or disconnected. And I felt that heavily. Right. Um, I think I spoke about maybe in part one, I think it was where I was in a session with somebody and they were like throwing names of people in their life, uh, to me, and this was someone who I'd been seeing for like five, six years, and I could not remember who these people were. I couldn't remember them. And then I was sitting there thinking, I actually don't care about any of this whatsoever. There was a complete disconnection, right? And it wasn't just like, oh, I don't understand this. It was a, I don't care. This, this is so pointless.

And. I think that that is a really good symbol of burnout in itself, but there's, there's more to it, right? So there's that apathy, there's the exhaustion. You're not just tired, you're exhausted physically. Maybe there's that physical component. Um, there's also things like despair and other sort of physical symptoms. But this idea of despair, I think is probably the most interesting for me. That idea of like, um, perhaps you were somebody who was quite helpful and like a role model almost for a client, and now you, you're at this point where it's like, I don't know, maybe it just won't get better for you. I dunno. Maybe, maybe you'll be in therapy forever. I don't know. Even if you don't say it to that client, perhaps you're saying it to yourself about them.

[00:30:11] Bronwyn: Yeah. So you lose hope for the client.

[00:30:15] Matthew: Right. In which case then, like what is therapy?

[00:30:18] Bronwyn: Yes. Yeah. For you, when you were going through that, were these changes jarring to you? Like, I know for me, like I'm generally quite, I'm good at being a cheerleader in therapy, so like for me, I, I easily say to clients like doors won't be closed to you forever. I know we can get through this. This is hard right now. If we do these things right now, we can make this better. I truly believe that the future can be different for you.

And it's like, I will say that genuinely, and I will, I will do that. And I know that if that changed for me, that would be a big loss of identity almost for me as a therapist, and I'm just wondering whether that change for you was quite jarring.

[00:30:57] Matthew: It was jarring. I think that's when I started to like lose myself. So when we spoke earlier about that, like spirituality and changes to value system, I think this is the stage of burnout where it really hit me, right? It, it was more than just apathy. It really is despair. It's like I, who I am. I dunno who I am as a therapist. Um, you know, you've perhaps in a session, you know, a client. I am thinking of one who told me something that I know historically I would react to actually, um, and I remember sitting there and having zero reaction externally and internally being like, oh, I could really like just go home right now, have a glass of Coke and watch that trashy TV show. I'd really love to do that.

[00:31:46] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:31:46] Matthew: Like, I was not even there. Yeah. And it's like. I'm not only not present, I'm fantasizing about a whole different, like world or life that doesn't even exist for me. Like I can't just go home...

[00:32:01] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:32:02] Matthew: ...um, in the middle of a session. Um, yeah, it was more than that. It was like, well, what's the point of this? Psychology is kind of fake. Like, what are we actually even doing here? Like, why, why did I waste my years and money for this?

[00:32:20] Bronwyn: Yeah. Would you say that this stage, like burnout overlaps with depression, like would you say that you're experiencing depression as well?

[00:32:27] Matthew: Yeah, completely. I think that that's how it presented to me more so that idea, and I guess this is based on my own understanding of burnout at the time that what I was seeing, I was like, this could be burnout, but you know, I'm, I'm meant to be seeing these clients and blah, blah, blah. So then it's gotta be like depression. Like it, it must just be that, you know, I can't get outta bed or whatever. So, uh, maybe if I see my gp, then it'll be fine. It's all good. But I think it, it's, it's more than just the depression.

[00:33:00] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:33:01] Matthew: It, it really is more than just that physical symptom. It's that like, what even is psychology? What's the point of this? Are we, what is therapy and are we actually doing anything at all?

[00:33:13] Bronwyn: Yeah, and -

[00:33:14] Matthew: I, I could like reverse this.

[00:33:16] Bronwyn: yeah, despair is a good way of capturing that. I downloaded an app, I think it's the one that everybody's going to for their emotions now, and it's got like four quadrants of emotions and you can select which emotion. I can't remember what it's called, but it's, it's popular. I think it's like, How We Feel, I think that's the name of it anyway, the lower left quadrant, which is the blue quadrant, the uh uh, the outermost feeling is despair. So that's like the worst you can get in the blue quadrant. So yeah, I feel like despair captures this very well.

[00:33:44] Matthew: I love that. I also love that it's with a color, 'cause I feel like that just works perfectly as blue.

[00:33:50] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. Totally. It is a, it is a blue color. Inside Out wasn't wrong like blue is is the sad one, yeah.

[00:33:59] Matthew: And, and it really is like that. You feel more, yeah, you feel blue. Maybe that's actually a, a really good description of it. You just feel blue that like loss of job satisfaction, but also like detachment from the job. And I think also a little bit of detachment from reality and that kind of feeds into that despair a little bit too.

[00:34:20] Bronwyn: Yeah. So it really is like you are asking existential questions. Um, okay. And so that stays with you. We'll get into like, I guess ending with what you can, what you can do. But I feel like, like therapy or any intervention that you would do for burnout would need to help address these existential questions, right? Or did they just go away as you get better?

[00:34:44] Matthew: I love that. I really love that. I, I think I had hoped that those existential questions would go away or that I would be able to kind of argue with myself that, well, that was just a burnout talking. It's not what I actually think, if I'm really honest. It is what I think. Right. Sometimes I do sit back and I go, what even is this profession? Like what are we doing and what am I doing in this session? Is this even helping? Um, I think those are questions that I have and I think it does come from a place more of curiosity and reflection rather than burnout.

And at the time though, that's what I wanted to argue. I was like, this is burnout. It's, it's not like the normal me, let's say. It'll be fine in time. I have had to really kind of explore that in my own individual therapy, my dissatisfaction with the profession. Yeah. Parts that I love and parts that I detest. Um, my, my almost like consistent thought of, what is this? Like how do you even describe being a psychologist more than just so I do therapy, like what am I actually even doing? Um, I've had to consistently address that in therapy, my own therapy, and try to come to a, a pretty -ish conclusion... I wonder if, and again, this is why I think it is a continuum in itself... I don't think I'll ever really be able to answer why did I choose this profession? Like beyond, I want to help people and I care for people, which are really basic and it's kind of what most psychologists quote anyway. Like, I don't think I'll ever be able to answer what psychology is, what I really do beyond therapy, um, and why I do it, I don't think I'll ever be able to really answer them.

And so I just kind of move on the continuum on days where I'm like, oh, this is pointless. I'd really rather just go back to like my retail job... I do have to identify. Mm... okay. Got it. So this is looking a little bit like the burnout, bit of the red zone. Got it. What's going on today? Right? And try and get back to that more like honeymoon phase of God I love this job and I love this client. I'm gonna book them in next week too, Leah. Let's do it. Right. Like try and oscillate between them by being super aware of, oh yeah, this is just part of my process.

[00:37:34] Bronwyn: I really love how you've put that as part of your process. Um, I wonder if everybody has these questions about psychology. I know like, like I do, I like, we've got an episode coming out. It will already be out by the time this one's released, but it's about what is the therapeutic relationship and like, it was pretty much like me grilling the, the guest, I actually apologized to them afterwards because I was like, sorry, I got like an interrogation like on that. And I was like, what is this?

[00:38:02] Matthew: I love that. That's awesome.

[00:38:04] Bronwyn: I was like, we go into these relationships with people, we give them a fake relationship, but it's supposed to be genuine, and then we rip it away from them, um, like when we finish therapy and then they have to grieve that loss. I'm like, how awful is that? Um, but anyway, yeah. So these, uh, I've had these questions.

Um, but yes, it is, it is a process and like you go through being like, what is this with this crazy thing, this, this therapy thing? What is it that we're doing? And then other days you're like, I can, I can tolerate this. This is fine.

[00:38:34] Matthew: Exactly right. Sorry, I'm laughing. Okay. I'll finish my sentence.

[00:38:40] Bronwyn: Poor guest. I could see them like, you know how when you're like interrogating people and the eyes widen a little bit and I could see I was doing that, but I couldn't stop myself. I was just like, what is it?

[00:38:52] Matthew: You know what, I'm, I'm laughing because I literally had this conversation with a supervisee of mine the other day where we were talking about like re-parenting that occurs in therapy. And they were essentially like, to me, I don't know if I like that, that makes me feel uncomfortable. And I was like, don't trigger this for me. Don't, don't do this again. Okay. I've, I've finally come to a conclusion with this. That's okay for me. Don't do this.

[00:39:16] Bronwyn: Yeah. That's in the box. We're gonna keep it in the box. Do not open the box.

[00:39:20] Matthew: My therapist is not available for like a couple more weeks. Please don't start me on this journey again.

[00:39:27] Bronwyn: Oh God, yeah. There's, there's so many questions to grapple with, okay, and they can be part of burnout phase four, which we were just talking about. And they can be present other phases as well, but it's like an enduring, pervasive like sense of purposelessness and despair, and I guess like it sounds like a bit of hatred towards the profession as well.

[00:39:48] Matthew: Love that. I think, I think hatred is actually a really good description. Even maybe more so than despair here, that I personally hated being a psychologist and if, if I'm gonna actually be super, super honest, I stopped telling people I was one. Right, so like in public or meeting friends of friends, um, even actually meeting some of my partner's family when it was like, oh, what do you do? I was like, uh, social work.

[00:40:15] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:40:16] Matthew: Yeah, because I was like, I, I, I can't take it. I can't have one more, oh, that must be interesting. Or, oh, what do you do? Or, I, like, I can't even think of myself as a psychologist because my, my value system is like shattered at this point. I don't know who I am. I dunno why I am a psychologist. I don't even know what this profession is. And you, you wanna get to know me, I... no. Like I'm a social worker to you and that's all you need to know.

[00:40:42] Bronwyn: Yep. Yep. Fair. Wow.

[00:40:45] Matthew: Yeah. I think hatred is a very good description for this, uh, area of burnout.

[00:40:51] Bronwyn: And, okay, so there is a final phase. It's phase five, so it gets worse.

[00:40:57] Matthew: Sorry, um, that was so sarcastically beautiful. I love that. Yeah, it does get worse. Um, okay. I need to stop laughing at the fact that it gets worse.

[00:41:09] Bronwyn: Yeah, actually, that's a good point. Gosh, I always laugh inappropriately at things, but it's like, but I, it's ironic laughing. Does that make sense?

[00:41:15] Matthew: It, it, it is ironic. Okay. Everyone put up your other hand if you...

[00:41:20] Bronwyn: Yeah. If you've laughed at things ironically.

[00:41:23] Matthew: Yes. Do you know what I, I really think, um, this is actually such a good bridge into this 'cause I think this is how we cope as psychologists. Our humor becomes so dark and warped and we, we do laugh at things like there's another stage. Of course there is, like, it's such a psychologist way of. Well, surviving, I guess.

[00:41:44] Bronwyn: And it's really, um, it's like I've had to work on, uh, with clients too, 'cause I love laughing. I love laughter. Like I love comedy, I love laughing. And so if somebody, if a client like, loves to laugh too, I'm like, oh, I'm so on board with this. But I have to like, if they're using that as a defense, I have to be like, we are gonna be serious. Um, yeah. And I have to like, if they try and make me laugh, I have to not laugh and I have to be like, what are we avoiding here? It's. So hard, but yes. Anyway, I digress.

[00:42:13] Matthew: Do you know what, we'll come back to this in a minute, but I, I kind of do the same with clients. I will laugh with them, and then I make sure I'm the first one to stop and I go, okay, let's, let's be serious now. We've had our fun. Let's be serious. Come on. Yeah, I, I totally get it.

Okay, so coming back, uh, there is this, um, yes, stage five or phase five, if you will refer to as habitual burnout.

[00:42:36] Bronwyn: Oh?

[00:42:37] Matthew: Ooh, right. Habitual. Which I think is a fascinating description. So it's, this is the more sort of severe, uh, end of this spectrum, end of this continuum. And it's this idea that habitual burnout becomes a chronic condition where really only professional help is the thing that's going to help you to recover and rebuild. That's the only thing that's gonna help you. And so I think you can find yourself then in habitual burnout day to day, right? And perhaps not even know it.

And I really think that that's where I was at the very, very end. And it was like, oh yeah, like it's just burnout, whatever. Right? But it, it had become habitual where I was like, I actually professional help. Right? Like, I, I can't do this alone. Uh, my friends and family are not even kind of powerful enough for this. Thi this requires, um, this requires like the Avengers level kind of help.

[00:43:38] Bronwyn: And like what does it look like in this stage? Like, are you not functioning? Like are you able to work?

[00:43:46] Matthew: It is the struggling to function, right? So, um, it got to the point, actually, I'll give you a great example. Okay, this is a really good example. Picture this, uh, we're outside. We're having lunch. It's me and two other colleagues. We're having lunch, and a colleague asks me, you know, if they can get me a drink, and I said, yes, I would love water with, um, oh, uh, thingo in it. And she was like, what's thingo? And I was like, um, what do you call that thing? Um, frozen, like frozen water. And she was like, ice. And I was like, that's the one, that's what I wanted. Water with ice. And she looked at me and she was like. 'Mm'. Like there was just a 'Mm'. And I was, uh, because she said that to me that I've never heard her do that. I was like, oh yeah, wait, my brain doesn't do that normally. Ooh, what's that? Right? And so it was getting to the point where I even, I couldn't even communicate like the word ice cube, right? Like I couldn't even communicate that.

Um, my partner would say to me, uh, you know, like, how was your day? And I would stare at him for a period of time and then come to it and say, good. And there was nothing going on cognitively. I was just like staring, right, the like there was no functioning, there was no, uh, okay. Now I can't say that because that's breaking confidentiality, so I'll say this instead. It was none of that. It was just like, good, that's it. I could not even communicate with people around me.

[00:45:30] Bronwyn: Did you feel, I've been studying dissociation a lot lately, um, did you feel like you were having like memory lapses or like you weren't quite there or you just walked places and you're like, how did I get here?

[00:45:42] Matthew: All the time.

[00:45:44] Bronwyn: Cool.

[00:45:45] Matthew: Yeah. So, uh, that kind of like, um, derealization really became like a, a beautiful friend for me. Um, yeah, uh, I found myself... so I missed multiple public holidays, mother's Day. Um, it got to the point where I'd have to check my diary, uh, like my calendar for like my brother's birthday, but I, like, I know my brother's birthday. Um, I would have to check my calendar for that stuff. Uh, I would get to work, like park and then sit in the car for five minutes and think, where am I? Like, I actually don't even recognize this place, but I'd been there for over a year. So like dissociation had become, uh, that like, I don't, I don't wanna say little thing on my shoulder... It had become me almost. I was just not present in the world for a very long time.

[00:46:40] Bronwyn: Wow. Yeah, so it's, it's really serious. It got really, really bad.

[00:46:44] Matthew: Yes, and I, I think that's what, that like, the difference between burnout and habitual burnout is right, that burnout is really that, like I, I'm exhausted. I don't really understand what I'm doing here. I'd need a break, like a really considerable break. Habitual burnout really is more of that like, what's my name again? Right, it's like it's quite, uh, insidious again. It, it really is. Uh, but we might find ourselves in that and not even be aware that we're in that I didn't know. I didn't

[00:47:21] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people in that phase don't really know either. And, you know, I've seen clients with that presentation. From what you are describing, it's like significantly reduced, functioning, cognitive functioning, not being present, um, plus all the other things that we're talking about earlier and just on and on and yeah, it's, it's no relief from it either.

[00:47:45] Matthew: Yeah. No, no. Oh, there, there is no relief. Uh, in the burnout stage, I could see very small relief, like very, very small. Perhaps, um, I, I'd had a moment of like crying and so there was a sense of emotional release in habitual burnout. There was no release for me. I felt like it was like, um, I think I said this in the part two, maybe I felt like it was like I either had to collapse and go to hospital or that was it. Like there, there was nothing else I can do. I, I'm at the end, there, there is nothing else.

[00:48:20] Bronwyn: Were people in your life concerned about you? Like was your partner concerned about you?

[00:48:24] Matthew: Oh, heavily. Heavily. Yeah. My partner has since, um, told me that he was incredibly worried about me, would worry about me 24/7. Um, same with like my mum again, my best friend. I think I said in part one was like, what's going on with you? Like, I'm concerned and would like. Watch me like trying to speak, um, but could see that like it just wasn't happening.

Um, and I think some of that still impacts me, especially with speech. It still impacts me today. But, and I, I can understand where they were coming from too, that at the time they didn't feel like they could approach me with it because I couldn't even speak, let alone, like here, I wouldn't have been able to actually take in what they were saying to me. So, uh, in yeah, retrospect, I've had a lot of like, yeah, we kind of thought that you'd probably end up in hospital or something.

[00:49:18] Bronwyn: Wow. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're, you know, you're feeling better, like you're not in that stage currently, right?

[00:49:24] Matthew: Much better. I would say I'm probably in that like, um, uh, I'm probably moving between honeymoon and Onset of stress. That's where I'm moving at the moment. Yeah. There's that like, new job. Been there for nine months. I'm optimistic. I'm like, oh yeah, I can do that. I'm gonna show you I can do it. Um, and then there's that. Oh, oh, tomorrow's diaries a lot. Okay. I've, I've really gotta take a step back here. So I, I'm in that at the moment.

[00:49:55] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. So which is like, it's from what we've discussed, like those are the stages where you can step back, reflect, think, okay, what can I do here? How can I manage this stress?

[00:50:06] Matthew: Yes. And so to give people like practical strategies, uh, you know, I had a meeting with my manager today and was like, my calendar's full for the next month.

[00:50:17] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:50:17] Matthew: That's it.

[00:50:19] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:50:19] Matthew: I can't take on any more projects. Um, I understand you might wanna tell me about some. Not for this month.

[00:50:27] Bronwyn: Perfect.

[00:50:28] Matthew: Like this month I'm done. Right. Um, part of my job is a lot of travel too, so just putting a boundary around I'm not able to travel for this, this, or this. I'm willing to travel for this, however. Right.

Um, and then outside of work... Because work I can directly change, but, um, outside of work in my personal life, I can kind of manipulate myself a little bit more, right? And convince myself, oh, you're doing that again. You should work harder, right?

So, um, I've had to cushion myself, so I make sure I have my tea around me. I've got all my like little sensory toys. Yeah. I, I have, um. Uh, you know, little dates planned, um, with my partner, but also with friends, so that I make sure I've got that social, um, connection and emotional connection part to... exactly.

So I feel like I, and this is what I said to you, I think in part one or two. Strangely, I'm glad that I went through burnout because now I'm at the stage where I'm like, Ooh, ooh, I'm feeling a bit of onset of stress, time to do some action. I'm changing that. Yeah, so I, I feel a lot more like motivated and hopeful and like strong within myself that I, I can make sure this doesn't happen again or, or reduce the likelihood that it will.

[00:51:49] Bronwyn: Which is really, really good. So if a listener is listening to this and they're further along the burnout continuum than they'd really like to be, what are some practical steps they can take to go back along the continuum?

[00:52:02] Matthew: Well, I think one of them, I think one of them is being honest with yourself, right? So actually perhaps, uh, maybe listening to this continuum or doing your own research, finding a model that works for you, um, I know there's one that's like a 12 step model... Um, and looking at that and thinking, right, honestly, where am I? Right? Like, if I was to cut the bullshit, where actually am I? I think step one is being honest with yourself.

I think step two, uh, is like, now how do I word this? I think step two is like, taking a step back from ambition. I, yeah, I, I think that, in psychology, right? We want to like, keep working, keep getting better, keep understanding more about our clients and about psychological phenomenon. I think sometimes we actually need to take a, a step back from like consistently learning and studying. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And like reading research and journal after journal, step back and lower that ambition.

[00:53:04] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, I really like the way you've put that. It's so true. It's just you can always learn so much. I mean, it's one of the good things about psychology that you can never theoretically get bored because there's so much to learn. But then the downside is that there's so much to learn.

[00:53:16] Matthew: Yes. I, I feel like when you are moving more so along that continuum and you're at like that chronic stress onwards, it's time to stop learning. You've learned enough.

[00:53:26] Bronwyn: Uh, and it's so true as well because people, what they usually do at that stage is they're like, I'm gonna branch out and do... sign up for X training and I'm gonna do a new modality, and then I'm gonna increase and become an accredited supervisor in this area. And they totally do that in that stage. More work is the answer.

[00:53:45] Matthew: Yes.

[00:53:46] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:53:48] Matthew: I'm, I'm making all these like, gestures into the, into the screen, but yes, like if I think about when I was in that like chronic stress, I was like, right, I'm gonna do my supervisor course, and I'm gonna become intensively trained in DBT and I'm gonna go for a team leader position at two different workplace. Like, no...

[00:54:10] Bronwyn: No.

[00:54:11] Matthew: No, we stop. I, you don't need more on your plate, you need less. So shut up and stop. Yes. Yep.

Um, I would say step three or phase three, whatever you wanna refer to it as. I think you've gotta start to look at your needs. So, um, I think as psychologists we are incredibly skilled at neglecting our own needs, and I mean that, I think we're skilled at it, right? Yeah. I think that, um, learning psychology in uni is actually traumatic. I, I personally believe that, and I think that learning psychology, like going all the way through masters or whatever, um. I think it actually teaches you to neglect your needs and focus on other people's, including colleagues.

[00:55:00] Bronwyn: Yeah, I'd agree with that. I mean, I feel like it's unprofessional to focus on your own needs and like even our ethical guidelines dictate that it's the client first all the time, no matter what.

[00:55:08] Matthew: Right, right. And so, I mean, even, even the um, oh, whatever it's called around like do no harm.

[00:55:16] Bronwyn: Yep. Non maleficent.

[00:55:18] Matthew: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Um, I, I love that term. And also how about we do no harm towards ourself?

[00:55:25] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:55:26] Matthew: How about that?

[00:55:27] Bronwyn: Man, I need that on a shirt. I'm gonna be non maleficent towards myself today.

[00:55:31] Matthew: Wait, I like that. That's camp.

[00:55:35] Bronwyn: And I want, and I want maleficence on it as well from like Snow White. Um, yeah. Yeah. Oh my.

[00:55:42] Matthew: I love this merch.

[00:55:43] Bronwyn: Somebody make that shirt please?

[00:55:45] Matthew: Merch. This is Mental Work merch. Okay. Trademark, you know, copy-

[00:55:51] Bronwyn: -for me.

[00:55:52] Matthew: Yeah. And you know, like I, I, I know I'm being jovial and joking about it, but this actually came to me during that burnout phase. Like, not, not habitual, 'cause I couldn't even think what day it was, but um, actually do you know what, during the habitual I turned up to, uh, work one day on a weekend? Like it got that worst. Yeah, it got that worst. Um, anyway, that was a total sidetrack, but, um, during the burnout stage, um, when I was like hating on psychology, I was like, um, somebody was talking to me about some ethics question and I was like... Wait, what about do no harm to me? Like why can't the profession do no harm to me, self-care is not enough to reduce harm. What about me? You know?

Um, and so yeah, I guess my, my third step there, or whatever number I'm up to, um, put your hand up if you've lost what number I'm up to. Um, uh, that, that third step there really is about observing your needs, but more specifically, stop neglecting your needs, right? Like, yeah, your clients are important. Yes. We want to do no harm. Like I, I can't stress that, of course. And we also wanna bring your needs into it, and we wanna do no harm to you as well.

[00:57:11] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I mean, just adding to that as well, look, if you're, if you're burnt out, I do feel like psychologists, we're more at risk of making mistakes that could hurt clients, and then that comes back to us as well. So it's like, obviously, we don't wanna harm clients. But the risk of that to you is that, let's say that because you're so cognitively impaired, you accidentally, um, cc all your clients into an email and you breached the Privacy Act that way. You know, so it's like because of burnout, you have done that and you've breached something, that comes back to you, it creates potentially more stress. So, yeah, it's really important to recognize your needs, not only to help yourself, but to protect yourself.

[00:57:50] Matthew: A hundred percent. I, I have actually seen a colleague do exactly that, like exactly that. Uh, and, and you know, um, CC'd in clients with their email addresses their full names. Like it... Yeah, right, and it, it actually happened people, like this actually happens, right? I saw it, I had to help problem solve it. Um, it, uh, if I think back to that person, they were in that like sweet spot between burnout and habitual burnout, right? They were right there. And so I, I can't like, hate or punish them for that. Like, I probably made the same mistake and just haven't even realized it yet, to be honest, right? Um, you, you will make those mistakes if you're in that, like, burnout, habitual burnout phase.

So we, we really do have to take like, quite seriously this idea of like, yeah, it's great to like, you know, want to go to work or turn up to work to pay your bills 'cause you've been a broke uni student. Or you know, maybe your schemas are like no clients, you can't let them down. You've gotta go see them. Um, whatever it is, it's like, that's great. And you could actually doing serious, really serious psychological harm or even medical or legal harm to clients by being burnt out. So it is something to think about.

[00:59:07] Bronwyn: Prioritize your own needs.

[00:59:09] Matthew: Yes, you are important. Um, do no harm to you. Okay. Um, I think a fourth step, uh, is about like revising your values.

[00:59:23] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:59:23] Matthew: So something that I was thinking about was when you are burnt out, you really don't meet your own obligations. Any like ambition or goal that you've set yourself, almost kind of like fades away, right? I, I became like a, a lone ranger with like, no path to go on. And so I think in revising your values, there needs to be like a redefining and like a, a realigning, is that a word?

[00:59:54] Bronwyn: I don't know. Uh, realign.

[00:59:55] Matthew: Realign! Oh, I like that. Yes. A realigning, uh, you know, recreate that path, right. You, I, I think people, psychologists would benefit from taking a step back and looking at, okay, I know I'm burnt out. I've admitted that. Great. I've gone through the other two steps. Great. So if I'm revising my values, why do I actually care about psychology, right? Like, what am I actually getting outta this job value wise? Not emotion wise, value wise, right? And if look, you might find an answer.

Um, I'm thinking about a, a colleague that I'm currently talking with who is kind of at this point of like, I actually don't think I have those around psychology and I don't think this is the profession for me to continue. Um, and then I think about me at the stage that they're currently at and I think, uh, yes. I hated psychology and I struggled to find the positives and I was able to come back to, um, I do this because I wanna make a difference.

[01:01:00] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[01:01:00] Matthew: Right? I have no idea what that difference is. I've got no clue, but I know that's why I do this. And so I think like a step four or a tip four is revising your values. Take a step back and redefine like, why am I doing this? What is this all about for me?

[01:01:18] Bronwyn: I think that's really important because like you say, some of us, maybe many of us get into psychology, not necessarily for a superficial reason, but the most we've thought about it is like, I really wanna help people. I've heard psychology, you can help people. And so I'm gonna do that because I can help people.

Um, but maybe we haven't given it further thought. Or maybe in my case, when I started studying psychology at uni, I was 16. It's like I didn't know who I was, what I was doing. Like, I was like, psychology seems fun. So it's like, yeah, it's, you can reapproach that later and think, does this actually resonate very deeply with me, with who I am?

[01:01:52] Matthew: Yes. Agreed.

[01:01:53] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes the decisions we make when we're younger, it's like we've changed or become different people or, or, or I guess expanded our idea of our identities.

[01:02:06] Matthew: Yes. Completely. Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, and if I do, you know what my, like, maybe last tip kind of feeds off of that a little bit actually. It comes back to this extent- uh, existential... jeez. See there's that speech thing, like it still impacts me today. Um, existential, right?

So it comes back to that existential component that you and I were talking about of burnout. The habitual burnout for me was, um, something I had come to the realization because I had realized I was, uh, dissociating so intensely, right? So my last tip really is around like depersonalizing derealization, right? Being able to actually, like when you're taking a step back... lots of step backs in psychology... um, but when you are taking a step back to reflect on, have I actually been present to my life, to to the world for the last one month, five months, one year, two years, whatever. And if the answer's like yes, and you can think of times, then great. I think if the answer's no and you can't think of any examples or you actually just stop thinking because you've already dissociated. Uh, then it might be time to get involved. So something that, um, I'm starting to research now because of my burnout experience is how I rest. And I realized that in that honeymoon period, self-care, maybe a bit of extra sleep, maybe I treat myself to a new pillow... That's so important for honeymoon, right? And it, it like cures me, if you will.

When you're at that burnout, habitual burnout stage, or at least when I was, I should say, none of that worked at all. And what I actually needed to do was instead of, um, withdrawing and like depersonalizing dissociating more, I needed to get more involved in other things. So I needed to get more involved in being creative.

[01:04:14] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[01:04:15] Matthew: Instead, I went the opposite and I like. I took a whole sabbatical from drag, right? I went the opposite. Um, I'm a heavily spiritual person, very spiritual, so the existential part comes to me quite naturally. And so I'd even taken a step back from, uh, all the spiritual practices that I do and, um, I was like starting to really like, get like very good at it. Uh, if you will, if you will. Things like yoga was a way of self-care for me in that honeymoon stage. Um, instead of perhaps yoga-ing more or doing it in a, in a way that was like more challenging or more relaxing, it was like, no, I just need to shut down all physical exercise altogether, right?

So my, my last tip here really is around that like, dissociation withdrawal. And I would encourage you to do the opposite to that. I think to like come out of that habitual burnout rather than doing less, we need to do more of like what's healthy and effective for us

[01:05:22] Bronwyn: I love that. Gosh, you're so smart.

[01:05:24] Matthew: Oh, thank you.

[01:05:26] Bronwyn: But it's so true. It's like, you know, like, I'm so, like, it's so cool that you've come through these insights, like through your own experiences and managed to put them in, in words around it. It's very, it's very, uh, a lot of wisdom.

[01:05:37] Matthew: Oh. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[01:05:39] Bronwyn: Yes. Yeah, it's really cool. And it, it resonates with me as well, because like I've had a burnout experience, and then one of the things that I did was I feel like there were parts of me that I had neglected through the burnout, and I really needed to reclaim those parts. Like I've always loved music and so I joined a choir. And it's like being around people who, uh, are a little bit weird and who love music and they just sing, it's been very invigorating.

And then likewise, um, I've always been into like social change as well and social justice and health equity. And I've been following emails like, I'm really keen on, like, following organizations that align with social justice, things that I'm really passionate about. And then I just joined a political party and I'm like, oh, now I get to like connect with people who also share my values and it feels normal and natural to really care about like mental health and disability and LGBTQA issues and stuff like that. And it's like I don't have to pretend, you know?

[01:06:33] Matthew: Yes!

[01:06:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. So like what you're saying really resonates with me. It's like I needed to find groups where I belong to feel less isolated because I feel like psychology wasn't offering me that.

[01:06:44] Matthew: Completely. So do you know what, going off of this, I, if I was to like recommend a particular resource to people, I would really encourage people, um, to look up a, a very interesting model called the Seven Types of Rest by, um, Dr. Sandra Dalton Smith. Um, she's an American physician. Anyway, um, she created this entire model of seven types of rest as a way to better understand, like, how people can feel more rested other than sleep.

[01:07:20] Bronwyn: Oh, she has a TED Talk.

[01:07:22] Matthew: Yes. Yeah.

[01:07:24] Bronwyn: Okay. Just Googled it.

[01:07:25] Matthew: And- good. I love it. She's on a fantastic, um, not to, you know, promote too many podcasts, but, um, you know, she's on one with, now forgive me about names, but Mama Mia.

[01:07:36] Bronwyn: Oh, okay, Sure. Yeah.

[01:07:37] Matthew: Yeah. yeah.

[01:07:38] Bronwyn: So they produce heaps of podcasts.

[01:07:40] Matthew: yes, yes, yes. So, uh, mama Mia, and I'm, I'm really forgetting her name, but, um, Sandra is a guest on one of those episodes, uh, called Seven Types of Rest or something similar. Um, and she really explores like, okay, so what if you were getting all the sleep you can get and you still like hate life, feel tired, feel like there's no meaning. There isn't that ex extensional uh, extensional 'cheese'. There isn't the spiritual, emotional, physical, et cetera, et cetera, rest, then what do you do?

And I, that podcast came to me just as I had admitted to myself that I was habitual burnout. And so that particular episode in the research I did after, similar to what you were just saying, it helped me realize, oh, oh, oh, got it. I don't need more sleep. I mean, yeah, I do, but I, it's not gonna like cure me, per se. I actually need to stop doing less and do more of the things that are gonna replenish my buckets that are gonna replenish my batteries. Um, and I don't, I don't need the energy to do them. That's kind of a, like a trick my brain's telling me. I'll form the energy by doing them themselves.

So it's, it's been incredibly powerful because I've been able to like, think about those seven types of rest and like, um, you know, where, where my energy levels are, right? Like if I'm pouring into the bucket, then where's it going out and vice versa.

So, um, maybe a sixth tip there, uh, really is to think about like, okay, if you're burnt out, or even if you're not and you're, you're in that like honeymoon stage or honeymoon phase, okay, great. When you inevitably get to burnout, potentially habitual burnout, uh, to help you oscillate back to honeymoon think about those, um, seven types of rest and where are you really getting your rest from?

Because if I think about it quite honestly, uh, and this is something I've been reflecting on, uh, after we did the part one and two un- uh, unfortunately, but if I really think about it, I was getting rest from work. Like that, that's how I got my rest. Because I was so burnt out, I had no friends or family. I'd gotten rid of, you know, exercise and all my creative and spiritual, um, types of rest and I was like, oh, I just have to work more, 'cause my supervisor's telling me that I have to. So what I'll do is I'll work more that'll make me fall, feel more accomplished. I won't feel like a failure, and that'll help me to feel rested, right? And like, you know, spoiler work is not one of the seven types of rest actually at all. So, um, yeah, something to think about.

[01:10:32] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, really important and I just looked it up. So it's on the No Filter podcast, um, with Mia Friedman. Um, and, uh, Sandra has a free rest quiz, which I've opened in a new tab and we'll be doing shortly.

[01:10:45] Matthew: Do it. It's, it's so good. She, you know, she's American, so she does refer to spirituality specifically as God. So, you know, if, if you're not, um, religious in that sense, keep your mind open. But otherwise that, that test helped me to understand exactly where I was burnt out, like what areas of rest I was burnt out in.

[01:11:06] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, that's really cool. These are all excellent tips and yeah, you've, you've developed a lot since your own burnout experience and into really helpful information for our listeners. So thank you so much, Matthew. It's been such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast, to talk about the burnout continuum as well as these lessons for helping listeners who are more far along than they would like to be.

[01:11:28] Matthew: Thank you. I appreciate it.

[01:11:29] Bronwyn: Yeah. Is there anything else that you'd love to leave listeners with? Like one thing that they should take away from this conversation?

[01:11:35] Matthew: I think one thing to take away is that burnout... It, it is inevitable. It is in like everyday work. It's kind of insidious in that space. So I would encourage people to perhaps reframe in their minds this idea that burnout is terrible and like the end of your career and maybe the end of, you know, everything and that rather it's a thing that exists. You can change each day though, you don't have to be like burnt out or fighting it or trying to avoid it and scared of it throughout your entire career. It's, it's there and maybe we can kind of have a conversation with it

[01:12:25] Bronwyn: No, lovely. Thank you so much again. It's, it's always such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. So thank you very much.

Listeners, if you found this episode helpful, please do follow Mental Work wherever you get your podcast from and take a moment to rate, review and share it with somebody else who might need it. We could use it with a few more ratings and reviews, so if you've got a moment, chuck a star and five stars on there, and make sure you put the podcast into somebody else's ears. It's the best way to get the podcast out there.

That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.