Beyond worksheets: How letting go can make you a better therapist (with Renae Martelli)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work podcast. The podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about an idea... the idea is that dropping the tools of therapy, like strategies and worksheets can actually help us to become better therapists.

As early career therapists, we're often taught to focus on what to do using these tools and techniques and structured interventions, and that's great, but is that really the best path to moving forward from beginner to advanced?

In this episode, we're going to explore how letting go of these rigid toolkits and tuning into the client, the context and the process can really transform our work in the therapy room and ultimately lead to better outcomes for our clients. Here to help us out with this topic is our guest, Renee Marelli. Hi Renee.

[00:00:54] Renae: Hi.

[00:00:55] Bronwyn: It's so nice to have you on the podcast. You are a new guest and it's very exciting to have you here.

[00:01:00] Renae: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited too.

[00:01:03] Bronwyn: Yeah, and could you please start off by telling listeners who you are?

[00:01:06] Renae: Yeah, so I'm Renee. So I have a solo private practice in Perth and I focus on working with kids and young people up to 25 as well as their parents and families as well. So I really enjoy working more in the family system to support kids and teens. I'm also a board approved supervisor and provide supervision, and I particularly love sharing ACT and DNA-V with um, therapists who are interested in using that with kids and teens.

[00:01:31] Bronwyn: That's awesome. And just to get a sense of your practicing journey, how long have you been practicing?

[00:01:37] Renae: Oh, okay. Since... it'll be nine years, it'll be nine years. So I started as a school psychologist and I did a four plus two internship. And then, um, three years ago I opened up my solo practice, um, and have been doing that ever since.

[00:01:52] Bronwyn: Amazing. And the idea that we're exploring today I think is really interesting and I'm so glad that you came to me with this topic because it is a commonly accepted idea that we should just give clients, the strategies and the tools, and sometimes that's what clients ask us directly as well. But it seems like you were thinking, is this the pathway to actually improving? Could you just tell us a bit more about that?

[00:02:16] Renae: Yes. So I agree and, and I think part of it is becoming a supervisor and reflecting on how do I, how have I grown as a psychologist and what am I trying to help my supervisees grow into, um, and I was reflecting on our previous training that I'd done, and also our training at university, so often we get taught a modality and you get taught the how to do. The modality, um, which is good, but then as I've progressed through my practice and career and like learning more about ACT learning through different trainers, um, listening to, um, different trainers, understanding contextual behavioral science more was a big turning point for me in my practice. Um, once I started understanding, well, the lens that really, really good therapists apply, then I was thinking it was kind of like, well, how come they come with this like really good lens, but then we get taught the how to do rather than the lens of the therapist.

[00:03:09] Bronwyn: What's standing out to me is something really interesting, which is I was training some therapists the week before and I spoke with them about ACT, so acceptance and commitment therapy, and for me I was like, you've all heard of ACT right? And it really shocked me when none of them had actually heard of ACT.

[00:03:28] Renae: Yeah.

[00:03:28] Bronwyn: And I was just wondering, could you just tell us a bit of what ACT is and then, and then, DNA-V.

[00:03:34] Renae: Yeah. Okay. So I'm surprised people don't know. And actually when I started, I didn't know much about ACT, and it's a very well researched model... very, very well researched. Um, so ACT is, it stands for Acceptance and Commitment therapy, and it's often, um, shortened to ACT, and it basically helps people figure out what do they care about and how do they wanna live and how do they wanna be in the world, and some of the things that might be getting in the way of that, whether it's internal experiences like thoughts and feelings, um, or potentially things that have happened in their history that are impacting on them.

But it's really supporting people to live the life the way they wanna live it even if they're having difficult thoughts and feelings or have difficult memories and things like that. Um, and in ACT we are looking at, um, six processes. If people wanna Google the Hexaflex, you can look at that to look at the processes that we're working on and that we try and listen out for when we're, when we're working with someone. So we look at those processes, um, and help people build skills in those processes to help them live, um, a life based on what brings value and vitality to them.

DNA-V is a model which was developed by Louise Hayes and Joseph Ciarrochi, and that model was developed with the adolescent in mind. So they looked at evolutionary science and looked at, um, adolescents and the qualities of adolescence and used that to inform the therapy, um, therapy in a model or a framework to support adolescents. It's also applicable to teens as well.

And as DNA-V has progressed, it's only at about 10 years old DNA-V, so as that's progressed, um, Louise Hayes is using a lot more in her work with adults, and there's also self-help books based on DNA-V for adults as well, but it was with the adolescent in mind. So DNA-V has the ACT processes plus so much more informing that model. So DNA-V includes evolutionary science, it's way more contextual, behavioral, it includes things like polyvagal theory, attachment theory, and it brings it into this beautiful framework so that when you are working with people, you are understanding what's happening for them. You understanding behavior, you understanding the contextual factors like the social context or the self context that might be influencing, their DNA-V behavior. Um, and yeah, so that model includes ACT plus, so many more elements.

[00:05:46] Bronwyn: You've explained that so well. It's almost like you're trained in this or something.

[00:05:50] Renae: Yeah. Yeah. So I deliver DNA-V workshops I have for the last couple of years. Um, so I love, that's my DNA-V is just, has absolutely changed my work and I'm a firm believer if you work with kids and teens, you should find out about DNA-V. So it's ACT, um, it's often marketed as ACT for, for kids and teens, but it's more than just the ACT part. There's a lot more to it as well.

[00:06:14] Bronwyn: Something I've been interested in lately, which might be a little bit tangential, but I've been doing research on children and adolescents and perhaps an assumption that sometimes people have is that we can just apply adult interventions to kids and teens, and I was just wondering, could you explain why we can't just apply regular ACT that we use for adults kids and teens.

[00:06:33] Renae: I was listening to Louise Hayes on a podcast once, and she explained it, and it was like a light bulb moment for me. She was saying, she, she commented on how, like, say for traditional CBT, for example, she said what, what we had done, so with CBT when we applied it to kids in teens, as we got CBT, we simplified it and said that was the version for the kids... But that's just a simplified model of a model that was based on adult development.

And when, when she said that, I was like, oh, oh my gosh, it's just simplified, we are simplifying language to make more sense for a child in adolescent development, but it's actually not considering the child development or adolescent development. So what DNA-V includes is, um, a few factors about adolescent development, like adolescents are more likely to, to engage in risk taking, there's changes to relationships like, you know, they break away from family and communicate and connect with friends more. Um, they play around with, um, like identity and style. So they, they're, they're more into like changing different behaviors and trying and testing behaviors. So the D four in DNA-V stands for Discoverer, so that's just a word to describe how we as humans engage in trial and error learning and we test and try things that's really big in adolescent and in childhood, more so than when we are adults. We kind of kind of know ourselves a bit more when we're adults and don't really do as much risk taking and trial and error learning.

Um, risk taking is another bit, sensation seeking is another bit. So all these factors are kind of in DNA-V. So it's looking at developmental behaviors, developmental ways, and how we understand an adolescent, how we understand children, and then that's informing the therapy, not just simplifying the language or simplifying the concepts which is amazing. Which is huge.

[00:08:10] Bronwyn: And that's what stood out to me as well. I was like, sometimes people just think kids and teens are mini adults and they don't consider that they've got developmental stages, cognitive emotional maturation, and different socioemotional stages as well. Like that individuation drive in adolescence.

[00:08:28] Renae: Yeah. Yep. Exactly.

The other one that came to mind then as well is with values. So people are familiar with ACT, so we we're, you know, listening out for what do people care about? What matters to them, um, and therefore how do they wanna live life and where then might, and that will guide our intervention and our therapies and what's getting in the way of them being able to do the things that they care about.

 If you apply ACT and you simplify it, you and you come in with that lens, it doesn't developmentally kind of fit because children and teens are developing value. They, they're figuring out through trial and error learning. So through discover a behavior through trial and error learning, through noticing what works for them or what doesn't, that's how they develop value.

So one of the other developmental differences, say with ACT and DNA-V, is we don't assume values are formed, they're figuring it out, and our job is to help them engage in context and in behaviors to learn what they care about, learn how they wanna be, learn what they wanna stand for. So that's another thing, you know, that's a developmental understanding that you're applying to a model and that's in a model rather than simplifying values exercises, for example.

[00:09:29] Bronwyn: It is really interesting. What you were just describing, I could imagine that a therapist would take that and be like, oh, great, I've got several activities that I can do with this teen, I've got all the strategies in my belt, and I can show them how to access their values in one session and then I'm done.

Um, so maybe you could share with us, how did you come to discover that maybe improving in your own therapeutic practice involves shifting from what I need to do to what is happening in the room?

[00:09:57] Renae: I think also just acknowledging that, you know, that that example that you get, you have was, I'm gonna do a values exercise with my client today. Um, that's, I I think like we've all experienced that one particularly early career, you're like, oh my gosh, I wanna do this values exercise, I'm just gonna do it with this client.

[00:10:11] Bronwyn: Yeah, I've done that, like I've done that literal thing cause I've got these value cards from Russ Harris and I'm like, I love my value cards, and I couldn't wait to use them. And I remember like a few times I felt like I'm definitely forcing this on you, aren't I? I am sorry, let's just do something else.

[00:10:26] Renae: Yes. And I think that you've got that wisdom where you kind of know that that doesn't work. Like coming in with that strong agenda of we're gonna do this activity. It doesn't, like it can work sometimes, but in general it doesn't work.

So we come in like with that agenda I'm gonna do, I've learned these, I've got these cool values cards, I've just purchased them, let me use them with this, with this teen 'cause it's gonna be really helpful. So we come in like with this strong agenda and we're kind of holding on really tightly to, I wanna do this exercise... So, and I think acknowledging that's really normal when, where we're, because, because we're excited and we, I think that comes also with really good intention. Like we wanna be helpful. We think this is gonna be helpful. Most ACT therapists actually, like even myself, like we use ACT in our day-to-day living, it's a way that we relate to our experiences. And so sometimes we're like, oh, this was really helpful for me and I really wanna help this person. So it's coming in with good intention, but we come in, it's almost like we are gripping onto that intention so tight, and then you'll find like it doesn't really land. And I think flipping to like, have some tools have, okay... I might wanna use values today, I think that might be helpful... but I think it's more important, and what makes for a better therapist is, um, noticing where your client's at, you know, the typical thing of meeting them where they're at, but not just that, it's like really understanding what's happening for them. Where are they getting stuck? I wanna use values. So you're holding that lightly behind you. It's like, I wanna use values, but how would values, how does values fit into where I'm assessing or conceptualizing where they're stuck, and how is values gonna help them move towards where they wanna go and what might be helpful for them, how's that gonna help them grow?

So those questions are very different to the agenda of, I'm so excited and I really wanna use this with great intention, and this has been helpful for me and let me just try it. It doesn't really land. We kind of need to be more attuned to our clients and then choose the tool once we have, where are they stuck? Where do they wanna go? Do I really understand what's influencing, like the contextual factors that are influencing the behavior, um, and understanding the function of the behavior? Doing that first, and then almost the tools will kind of come, the tools, the metaphors, the experiential exercises come after that.

[00:12:29] Bronwyn: Having done ACT training myself, it is quite an experiential therapy. Like I did my training through Russ Harris and he has all sorts of experiential exercises where you're trying to show the clients the process rather than tell them directly. And I really love that, but I can imagine that a common challenge for early career psychs is is working out when and how to use those experiential exercises? Is that something you've observed?

[00:12:58] Renae: Yes. And I think the training where you're learning the how to, and it's very exciting 'cause you learn these exercises and you're like, oh, this is, and and Russ Harris teaches that you do it in his training, right? And every ACT therapist, you would do it on your own stuff in, in training. Um, and so it's very powerful, and so it's very motivating to kind of want to do it in session. Um, but it's, that's still focused on like the how to do and not the therapist lens.

So, um, I think moving from, okay, you've got these tools, they're great, and sometimes, like I still have sessions now where I'm like, I really wanna try this metaphor or this experience or whatever it is, but I still- I don't do that until I really understand, where is my client stuck first? Do I understand what's influencing the stuckness? Is that behavior working for them or not? So like all these bits are also part of ACT, it's just not necessarily taught in every training, um, because people do wanna go into training going, I wanna know how to do that therapy and I wanna walk out being able to do it tomorrow. I think understanding the lens also makes for better practice because then you're more attuned to your client, you're more attuned to what's happening for them. You better understand where they're stuck, and then you'll be able to know, you'll know what exercise to use once you get that information and you, and you also understand where the client wants to go as well.

[00:14:12] Bronwyn: It's really important. I'm trying to think of a little analogy as we're talking, and the best I can come up with, on the fly. Is like offering somebody a meal, which they don't actually want at the time, but which you want to cook. So it's like pasta. You want pasta, and they're like, actually pasta is the last thing that I would want today. And it's really important to understand what that person wants to eat that day before offering them what you already had in mind.

[00:14:35] Renae: Yes, I love this. I love this. And like we've all experienced that where it's like, no, but I also really want pasta. Why don't you want, how do I convince you to want it? Can I like, are you sure you don't wanna, but I made this really good sauce and it took me eight hours. Are you sure you don't wanna have some? Are you sure?

You know, it's almost like you, then you get into a battle with the other person of, you're trying to make them fit into what you want with good intention, with the most beautiful of intentions, but you miss the mark, you miss it. You're missing it.

[00:15:03] Bronwyn: Yeah, because I'm thinking like one of the strategies in ACT for example, I dunno if this is in DNA-V because I haven't done training in DNA-V, I guess I need to take one of your workshops. Um, but, but in ACT, something that you can do with clients is that you can kind of. The best way I can put it is that you can make fun of your thoughts.

You can gain distance from your thoughts by kind of singing them in a song or increasing the volume of the thoughts, or pretending that they're in the, in the voice of Daffy Duck or something like that, and I feel like that's a strategy that needs to be done carefully. After all the things that you've just described, understanding the client deeply attuning to their needs. You have that tool in the background, but it may come across as quite invalidating or not what they need in that moment. If you just put that out there straight away.

[00:15:47] Renae: Yes, and, and I think... I conceptualize everything in DNA-V now, like it's, it's just in my head. So can I, I'll just explain the DNA-V processes and then I'll link in with one of the processes that I think then helps to work with, with that, when that hap, if that was to happen or when that happens.

So DNA-V is an acronym, and it's a metaphor as well. So D stands for Discoverers. That's our ability as humans to engage in trial and error learning and to track our behavior. So to track and notice. When is this helping me? When is it not? And can I change my behavior? So some people struggle with that. Um, so we are assessing for that in, in D.

 N stands for Noticer, and that's our ability to notice what's happening within us in the world, around us and within another person. So that's our Noticer ability.

A stands for Advisor and. Uh, play on words and I love it so much, and it's, um, it describes how our thoughts are, like we give ourselves advice. So it's, we've got an advisor. It gives us advice. Sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's not. So it's our thinking behavior.

V stands for Valuing and Vitality. So caring about stuff, doing what matters, and doing things that bring vitality and energizes us.

So if, you know, you might use, so let's say you've come in with the, you know, you've held onto the tool, you've walked into the room, you've stepped in with this, I'm gonna do, um, some like playful diffusion exercise, I'm gonna make my client sing, you know, um, I'm a failure in the tune of Happy Birthday, like that's gonna work today, 'cause I know that they're fused. So I've got a sense that they're fused, and I did this, you know, I know I wanna do a playful diffusion exercise.

So you walk in, you're holding onto that tool so tightly, um, and then you are like missing, then you notice the client's like, this is weird. You notice the discomfort. So in that you're using your Noticer. So as a therapist, I, I use my notice a lot in, in therapy and I found it... I'm finding it very helpful, but it's like if you're not noticing, you are coming in with your thing, so you need to notice that. But then noticing how's the other person engaging in this? Do they actually understand why this tool is applicable to them or are you coming in with, I've got a sense that there, there's some fusion going on and I need to come in with an a diffusion exercise and a playful one, which is often like, people know about these exercises if you're familiar with any ACT, um, you know, content or, or listen to any ACT practitioners.

So I think noticing the other person is really important in that process, 'cause if you come in with the agenda and they're not ready or they don't really understand why you're doing that, that's when things kind of go wrong. And then I think early career, then you kind of go, I'm not a good therapist. It's because you start going in your Advisor and you start going, oh, it's because I didn't do it right and I need to go back, and maybe it was a different diffusion tool I had to do. So you go back and go, oh, I tried diffusion, but it didn't work, they didn't really like it, it felt, they felt invalidated. I didn't do it right. Maybe I don't like ACT. Maybe I'm not a good therapist.

And then you go into Advise and you start blaming yourself. But actually what went wrong there was not noticing the other person, not being attuned to them, not bringing along the journey of why perhaps diffusion would be helpful for them. Maybe not understanding exactly why fusion was happening in the first place and not really assessing that, um, deeply enough.

Um, so there's just a few things that you can do around that. But also noticing early career, you start blaming yourself. You're like, it's 'cause I'm new. It's 'cause I'm this. But actually it had nothing to do with at Tool, it had nothing to do with you. It's just about how you're kind of coming into the room and how you are understanding what's going on, and then choosing the intervention from there.

[00:18:58] Bronwyn: You've explained that really beautifully, and it ties into what I was hoping we could talk about, which is some of the common challenges that early career therapists face when they rely too heavily on tools or these structured interventions. And I guess one of the challenges might be, or maybe the consequences of focusing too much on tools is that they draw a conclusion that there's something wrong with them, rather than being open to the possibility that perhaps it was not fully understanding the client's context first.

[00:19:26] Renae: Yes. Yes. I do think that's one of the challenges. 'Cause then you go to self blame and we know, like negativity bias, you're more likely to blame yourself, um, particularly when you're in that big learning curve when you're just starting out. And you know, the, you know, you wanna try that therapy, you're like, it sounds great, I've experienced it. It's been so helpful. And then you do it and you're like, oh, well, it like flopped. And you're like, it must be me. Um, so yes, I do think that's a, that's definitely one of the challenges.

[00:19:50] Bronwyn: I, um, early on in my training doing the training with Russ Harris around ACT, I remember that he said something which really stood out to me 'cause it must have related to. I know my schemas or something, but he said a lot of ACT therapists say they're doing ACT but aren't actually doing it in the session. And I remember thinking, I'm not gonna be one of those therapists. I will make sure I do ACT in the session. And then I did all the mistakes that you just mentioned. I was like, great, we're gonna do tools and strategies.

[00:20:16] Renae: Yes, yeah, yeah!

[00:20:17] Bronwyn: So I feel like I, I'm sure that can resonate with a lot of listeners because it ties in with like, uh, having high standards and wanting to do good. but could you just explain maybe the, the consequences of that, of buying into that belief? Like, I need to be doing something in session?

[00:20:34] Renae: Yes. Yeah. when you, when we walk in with, I need to be doing something, where are we?

[00:20:40] Bronwyn: Um, I guess I'm in my own head.

[00:20:42] Renae: Yes. So we're an advisor. We're in our head, right? And does that make for a good session?

[00:20:50] Bronwyn: Almost never, um, because I'm too focused in my own head rather than on the needs of the client.

[00:20:55] Renae: Yes, yes. And so as a therapist, I think we're also juggling a thousand things or more. So we're like, we're noticing another person. We are listing, you know, we case conceptualizing quite quickly. We're trying to understand and we are connecting with them. And then, early career, you're like, am I doing it right? Then there's a voice of, am I good enough therapist? Am I doing it right? I learned these tools, I wanna apply it.

Um, and so when we are coming into that, we are living in our Advisor, we are living in our minds, and we're actually not doing the stuff that makes therapy really valuable and fulfill even fulfilling for us. So if you think about when a session goes really well and you walk, like, have you walked away from a session where you're like, "oh, that was so moving" or powerful or amazing. And in, if you think about what it is about those sessions, it's, you're so connected to the person. You really, you kind of came in with a curiosity rather than agenda. You came in with a curiosity, you came into connect, you felt there's this, there's that connection, like that felt connection. Um, and the other thing is like, you, you there would, there would've been probably some growth, change happening for the client in big, small, in between, you know, those, those moments.

It's that all of those experiences are not about being in the head and coming in with, am I doing it right? Do I need another tool? What tool did I use? It's, that's part of it. Like, we do need a toolbox. We do need to have some kind of idea. We do wanna try out different experiential exercises or metaphors or questioning. That's fine, but it's just holding it lightly and coming back to the stuff that actually makes for, for a good session.

If you think about, when you've walked away from a session going, that's so good. It's not about how much do you try to get the person to eat the pasta or get the person to hold onto the tool and do the tool. Sometimes it does land, sometimes it does. It's not to say that that never works, but the sessions that are really powerful and just fill you and energize you, it's not the sessions where you're holding onto the tool and trying to make them fit. It's the ones where you're connecting, you're understanding them. You're coming in with curiosity. Um, and you're seeing growth and you are selecting things based on all the information that you got in the session.

[00:22:54] Bronwyn: I was just thinking, I've never received feedback from a client along the lines of when you pulled out that tool and that's that worksheet in session, oh, it was a light bulb moment. You know, I never have received feedback along those lines, that the tool was what was most impactful for them. It's always those moments of connection, um, and understanding and facilitating insight that is most memorable, I find.

[00:23:20] Renae: Yeah. And yet we are taught the tool, the protocol, the method.

[00:23:26] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's so funny. It's like I've never seen a review on Google, or I don't anticipate I ever receive one that like, Bronwyn has really great worksheets.

[00:23:36] Renae: Yeah. Yep, yep. And worksheets have a place. They, they are, if they're aligned with where the person's stuck, can they, are they on that journey? Do they see that? And do they wanna move? Are they willing to move out of that? Do we really understand it? And then you might choose a worksheet that's so beautifully aligned. You might do that, and that brings in the insight. But isn't the worksheet itself, it's not the tool itself, it's all the other bits around that.

[00:23:58] Bronwyn: Yes, absolutely. And I shouldn't trash worksheets full stop. I completely agree that -

[00:24:02] Renae: I don't use worksheets a lot either, yeah.

[00:24:04] Bronwyn: But usually I draw them out myself. So for example, if there is a worksheet, I try and get it in my own mind what it is, and then I'll draw it out and go through it with them. And then I might give them a copy to take home later, um, so that they have that, uh, memory function, but it's going through the process.

So I was wondering if you could tell us more about... because I'm just gonna assume that you're a regular person, so you have regular thoughts as well, and maybe when you started out it was, it was, some of these thoughts are showing up for you... What convinced you to kind of not fuse with these thoughts anymore and instead tune into the client, so drop the tool, tune in. What was that process like for you?

[00:24:42] Renae: So the process, I think when I'm thinking about my answer to this question, the process is very much informed by expanding my knowledge and my training in ACT and in DNA-V. So really understanding the contextual behavioral worldview and lens. So I'm always coming at, I really wanna understand. The behavior for the person, the contextual factors, which is just everything that might be influencing that behavior. So such as history systems, neurodivergence memories, um, internal processes that might be going on for the person. Um, any, the culture, politics, all these things are influencing behavior all the time. When I understand that I actually better understand where my person is stuck or where they're getting stuck.

And also myself, you know, you said better understanding myself where I get stuck as well. So once I understood that, that allowed me for myself as a therapist and even for my clients to really understand, okay, I can now track and notice, using that, noticing, using that discover of behavior tracking to notice, okay, this is where I'm getting stuck and can I let go? Can I let go of that? Because I do think that makes for a better therapist because I'm more attuned. I'm noticing my own experience. I'm also using that noticing to inform what I know about my client and, and then also noticing the other person as well.

But yeah, using a lot of noticing type processes really helps with dropping the tools and letting go of that tightness I'm holding on. I wanna do this thing, I wanna do that thing. Or I'm not doing it right and I'm, I'm a bad therapist. And there's still days where I'm like, I'm getting it wrong. Like I don't feel like I'm doing the best thing, and I have to then do reflection. And what does that mean? What's this message coming? And like, you know, practicing ACT on myself or on myself. It's like, what does that mean? Does that mean I'm. Need more training do, does I, do I need to take it to supervision? Often it's, I actually think I need to have a bit more supervision here. Um, or is it about me just downregulating in the session? So using lots of noticer skills there. Um, but yeah, using those processes to help if I'm feeling like I'm doing a really shit job today or I missed the mark or, um, I got it wrong.

[00:26:38] Bronwyn: So it sounds like it was, once you gained the expansion in your knowledge, it was quite easy or like, it's almost like a relief to be able to shift to this different frame of the client's presenting concerns.

[00:26:52] Renae: Yes. Yep. Absolutely.

[00:26:55] Bronwyn: Um, you mentioned supervision beforehand, and I'm wondering what role do you think supervision plays in helping therapists go from beginner to intermediate to advanced?

[00:27:05] Renae: Yes. So I think... let's say you've gone to your training, you've learned the how to, you've learned the exercises you can use, you've learned the tools that you can apply. You want supervision to help you then with your lens, with a therapist lens. That's what I think, and that really helped me as well. I had a very good supervisor when I had, like, I did intro ACT training and then I had good supervision, did DNA-V training, then did lots of training with other therapists, listened to other ACT therapists.

Um, and I think when you have a, a supervisor that helps you. notice your lens and how, and, and gets you to, particularly around case conceptualization and of course, how you conceptualize a behavior of what's happening for a person who's gonna depend on the modalities and the theories and the philosophies that you, you align with, and also your own background and your own history, your own context.

But so despite that, regardless of whatever you're coming in with. Your supervisor asking you like, what did you notice? What did you feel like what, how you understand where your client stuck. Like wh- why are you using that strategy? Rather than, how do I use this tool better? Can I get another diffusion exercise? Can you tell me about this? Or whatever it might be.

So I think supervision helps in you slowing down and understanding your lens. Like, how are you, I almost imagine it like. Um, and I had a session with my supervisee around it's like, how are you walking into the room? Like when you are walking in, like what are you embodying? What are you coming in with? Um, there's another like saying like, what posture? Like your therapist posture. Um, and I think when you are attuning to that and noticing that and understanding that and tracking that behavior, um, that helps become a better therapist, I think that moves you from beginner to I need to do the tools. I need to practice the tools to, can I notice myself? Can I know- what am I stepping in with? What's this stance and I'm coming in with, what am I embodying when I'm meeting someone for a first session or we are working together?

Um, and having your supervisor help you build that and ask questions about that, but also get them to help you conceptualize what's going on based on whatever framework you're using or theories that you're using. So if you work with me, it's often based on ACT and DNA-V. So it's like, okay, from this contextual behavioral lens, what's impacting this person and where might we intervene, um, rather than this is the tool that you should use.

And I think it's also the balance. So supervision should give you the balance of coming from the lens, like building up your therapist lens and your therapist stance and a way that you come into a room, um, but also the tools and building that toolbox, but using those tools thoughtfully, purposefully based on your conceptualization and based on what your client wants to work on. So balance of the two.

[00:29:29] Bronwyn: It is a balance, and I love how you've explained that. I realize that as you're talking about the posture you bring into the room, I do that, but I didn't frame it in that way. So one of the things that I do in therapy is, quite often, and this is quite a common client concern, but you might come in having quite critical voices and an advisor, I guess in your model. Um, quite critical advisors who, who may be like, um, say main things like the voice is not supportive. And the posture I try and come into in therapy is usually self-compassionate posture. Yes. Um, and I've worked really hard on developing that because I wanna model it. I also want to be able to, yeah, just speak from that compassionate voice.

[00:30:13] Renae: Mm. And I'm the same. And particularly learning about compassion focused therapy and self-compassion and ACT and DNA-V, uh, they're just being self-compassionate is very much part of it because you're developing, really what we're trying to instill in people is develop this relationship with the self that's gentle and um, kind and compassionate and caring so that we can do the stuff that we care about.

I really find that that. For me, that's been my personal experience and that's the, the experience that I walk in with. You know how you are saying you walk in with, you are also developing that self-compassion and when you are coming to the room, you are coming in with, I I hear the inner critic, the inner critic. I hear that advisor. I relate to it and it's normal and it's, it's shit and it hurts. And we are going to meet that voice with some caring and kindness in a way that perhaps you don't know in a way that feels very foreign or very scary. Um, but I hear you coming in with that, that way of, um, relating to that inner experience that we all have, um, and that we feel so, so alone in.

Like, you know, you've seen clients where they come in and they think, like, I'm, I'm working with, with teens in particular, or older primary school kids with like perfectionism and I need to do well, I need to get good grades. And I walk in with, yeah. We need to build some self-compassion, but first also we need to understand where these have come from, the contextual element of how these have come about. Um, and say with perfectionism and I need to get good grades, and if I don't get good grades, I'm not worthy, or there's stuff around being busy equals worthiness or being busy and doing lots of study is good or, and if I don't do that, then I'm bad, like all these kind of rules around how we should be, how we should talk to ourselves.

So yes, coming in with that self-compassionate way, but allowing them to also see what's influenced this inner voice. And often there's lots of things that influence it that makes so much sense. And this inner voice has, has been adaptive or has served a purpose or has worked to some extent, um, but is there a different way? And so often it's the self-compassionate voice or the self-compassionate or gentleness towards the self and those thoughts, um, that can be helpful, and we practice it ourself.

[00:32:18] Bronwyn: I could imagine a really awkward intervention say where a client does have a quite a critical inner voice and in, if I didn't seek to understand what is, what that voice is saying, um, what has influenced that voice, and instead coming with my self-compassion technique and like, we're gonna practice that today, I think that would not land well. And I think that relates to, I guess, common things that all humans have, we all wanna be seen and understood. And if we don't meet that first, then it's probably our tools and strategies aren't going to land at all.

[00:32:51] Renae: Yeah, that is so true. And in that I almost hear like you, you walking in with, you walk into your room as a therapist or if you're a mental health worker or whatever you're doing, whatever client work and client work that you, you, you're engaging in, you're walking in with being seen and heard and understanding, actually I'm coming in with that first. That's a very different way to, I'm coming in with my acceptance or values cards today.

[00:33:15] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:33:16] Renae: Like, it's a very different way to walk in. Um, and you're right, we all just wanna be seen and heard. And in that, in, when, when I'm doing seeing and hearing from, from architectural behavioral perspective and from DNA-V perspective, I'm getting the client to also hear what's happening for them and they're tracking behavior. So it's not just about being seen, heard, it's also like going, can I, can my client notice what's unfolding here? Can they feel what it's like to say these things out loud? And what's it like for them? And do they still wanna do that? Like, and still doing a lot of ACT processes, DNA-V process just in being seen and heard. Do you get what I mean as well? It's not just about coming in with, we're just doing that, but it's coming in with that, with gentleness, but also so that it's helpful for, for, for the person that we're working with as well.

[00:33:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's really transformative what you're saying. Because, yeah, we've all started out where it's like, okay, I'll do the CBT training, I'll do the ACT training, then I'll do my DBT training, and then I might do another specialist training like EMDR therapy. And those are all well and good, and I've done all of those and I followed that path.

Um, but, and, and I guess that's what's rewarded as well, like if you apply for jobs, it's like you need skills in each of these things. It's usually the essential criteria. It's like, uh, skilled in a range of therapy techniques. But when we actually get into the nitty gritty of what is effective for our clients, we can really see that increasing our skills has to include this attunement to the client. It has to include them being seen and understood and them noticing all these things. And I guess that's what you've observed.

[00:34:42] Renae: Yes. And I also wonder, I'm also thinking as you're talking, like if you're coming in with DBT, you're coming with so much training, what's your stance? Like, how, how, how are you if we come back to like, how are you coming into the room as the therapist? What are you bringing? Are you bringing in bits and pieces of everything? Are you coming in with a solid foundation of this is actually how I understand humans, and also knowing that that can change as the research changes. Like this, it is about having a flexible stance. It's not about going. Okay, I'm only ACT and that's it. Like, it's not about that. It's as research changes, we know more we are gonna change our practice.

But it's, if we're coming with, with so many things and bits of so many things, what's our felt sense as a therapist? Like what are we actually coming in with? Are we coming with bit space? Are we not, or do we kind of do the relational thing and then we pull in our tools and resource like they're, like our tools and resources that we pull in. I also wonder about that when, yeah, it is reinforced that you should have so many different modalities. Like what does that actually mean then for you stances of therapist?

[00:35:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, I completely agree and it's something that I've seen, actually with respect to advertising, something that I saw a business coach say was like, when they read your profile, they are buying into your way of viewing human suffering and concerns. And if you've got five different therapies, it can be kind of confusing what your view of that is. Um, whereas, like you say, if you have a solid foundation, it's clear, you come in knowing what posture you wanna take into that therapy and that can evolve, um, but it's, it's a solid foundation.

[00:36:09] Renae: Yes. And 'cause we're talking about early career as well, and, and so, and I think also thinking about that developmental, um, path is you do try a lot of therapies, you do a lot of training and that's so that you're wearing them, you're trying them on, you're giving them a go and seeing what fits with you. Um, so I think that's also very normal in the beginning.

I think, um, but I think once you become more advanced, I don't. I mean, in my, so I'm in the, um, architectural behavioral science community, and they're like, everyone is like, we are architectural behavioral scientists or, or practitioners. Like they, they, they're very firm on the stance. And then what we do around that stance changes. But if you are advanced, like if you've, if you're still doing many, many things later in your career, I, um, I, I'm not sure what that, that feel of therapy would be like, but I think in the beginning that's normal to also try. You wanna try? You're in Discoverer. trying, you're testing, you're seeing what works for you, you're noticing what aligns with what you care about. You're noticing what aligns with how you wanna do things. Um, so I think also that is normal for early career therapists as well.

So try it on, walk in with that stance. It doesn't need to be so firm and grounded like some of the therapists that I know. But you are developing that. It's with the, the, the, functional. The purpose of I'm developing my way, I'm developing my posture through trial and error learning and doing lots of training and trying everything on, and being clunky and making mistakes and doing all those things.

[00:37:32] Bronwyn: I love how you've just normalized that process because it is Yeah, an identity development of our own as therapists working out what resonates with us trying out different things, that is so normal. And I find myself coming out of this early career, going into like an early mid-career phase, it has become more stable in my approach.

So it's interesting talking to you actually, because I've done advanced training in schema therapy, and I'm trying to align like my schema therapy language with your ACT language, and it's like we have similar ways of, of viewing things, but it's slightly different language, but it's like, I dunno, I just find it very interesting and it's like we can still connect, but it's so important to have that foundation of when you come into the room with a client, what is it that you're communicating? So yeah, it's really cool.

[00:38:14] Renae: And if you've done advanced, I don't know much about schema therapy, but if you've done advanced, now that sounds like that's gonna be like kind of your, um, your roots at the moment. So it's like, that's, that's your main thing and then you might bring other things that align with it. And I don't think therapies are so dissimilar. Like we do, we, we we're dealing with humans and human behavior, there's gonna be so much overlap. So, um, it is just your lens of the stuckness is how I see it.

So like, you'll look at schemas as like when you're looking at where my client is stuck, you're gonna look at that from a schema perspective, for example. But you're still looking at where are they stuck? Do I really understand? Do I understand what's influenced that, including history, trauma, neurodivergence, whatever it might be, and where am I gonna move them? But you're using from a schema, but we're still kind of coming in with the same, "I really wanna understand".

[00:38:56] Bronwyn: Literally in schema, I would be like, okay, this mode is causing fusion, which would be the ACT language, and then that's preventing the person from moving forward towards where they wanna be. And so Schema is all about, okay, how can we notice that mode when it's showing up in your day-to-day life and recognize, is this from the past or is this serving me well then is it serving me well now? Which would be the values language of ACT.

[00:39:18] Renae: And also the behavior tracking piece. So can, which is in Discover, can I track when behavior is flexible in flexible working for me or not? And remembering also as a side note, that I'd always need to say, in ACT we, you think, oh, we're always working towards psychological flexibility and moving behavior, we're not, sometimes rigid behavior makes sense and is functional and adaptive and workable.

So sometimes, you know, I'm imagine there's some schemas that actually. Are so purposeful, you don't actually need to do anything with them. Even from, even if the form looks like it's a problem, it actually isn't in, in function or in workability, how it's working, how it's serving them, or if it is, it might actually be values aligned, um, or protective or whatever it might be.

But I love the similar, I hear the behavior tracking bit, so Discover a bit. I hear the Adviser bit, which is like the schema part, um, as well. And also, is it moving me towards the life that I wanna live or not, which is your values, vitality direction. So similar.

[00:40:09] Bronwyn: It's so similar, but I guess we each have our own clarity in the model that we're coming from, which I find awesome. Oh, that's so cool.

Renee, is there anything else you wanted to share with our listeners today about how we can, I guess, move from beginner to advanced as a therapist?

[00:40:25] Renae: I'm, I'm reflecting on my own journey. My journey has been listen to many voices, like if you're really interested in schema or ACT or DMA-V whoever, like listen to as many voices as you can. And I think also in beginner when you listen to many voices or when you have supervision or diverse supervision or diverse conversation with other people who are in your field and have the same passion as you, I think that helps them form your own way.

So it's not about being like, like I'm not trying to be Louise Hayes. I'm very, I work very differently to her, but she, she does inform my work, right? So she's the co-creator of DNA-V and she does very much inform my work and my stance, but not necessarily how I do DNA-V or do ACT. But I think, get diverse perspectives and let that inform your way. And you, when you walk into the therapy room, you try your way, but being informed and being playful with the other ways that you've, you've learned.

Um, that also is about dropping the tools a bit. So it's more about what's my stance, what's my land, rather than this is the tool I have to do today and I have to do this, or and that tool worked really well 'cause the trainer told me to do this tool and I'm gonna do that one. Um, I think that helps move you from beginner to that middle bit where you start to get your way.

So good supervision, hearing lots of voices in whichever field you're in. Like people are so generous. There's lots of, um, practitioners, researchers are on podcasts. There's lots of free ACT videos where you can watch therapy happening. There's so much free stuff that our world is brilliant, like in terms of learning things. So get different voices, get different perspectives. I think that helps move.

And I think, yeah, dropping the tools as well, like loosening the grip on that. Like have them, they're next to you but they're not held tightly close to your chest and you're walking in with them like, here, come on, like, have this today. Um, I think that helps.

And then good supervision to help you build that lens, help you when you are playing and discovering the different stances, the different ways, the different models, your therapist helping you, figuring out, um, what actually felt good for you. What did you notice for you as you did that, and what was that like for your client and does that align with you or not? I think having some good guidance also around developing your way, um, is also helpful to move from beginner to intermediate. Um, and I'm not an advanced level at all. I'm definitely in the middle somewhere. Um, but I think that helps, um, progress from beginner and moving up, um, the learning journey.

[00:42:39] Bronwyn: Thank you so much, Renee, for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate, it's been such a delight to have this conversation with you today.

[00:42:45] Renae: Thank you, Bron. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

[00:42:47] Bronwyn: If listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:42:51] Renae: Yeah, so my business is called Think Feel Grow. So thinkfeelgrow.com.au is my website and you can find out more about me. Um, I'm not very active on social media, but I am on LinkedIn, so you can search Renee Martelli and I am on LinkedIn as well. But, um, yeah, I'm happy, happy for people to email me and contact me through my web- website.

[00:43:08] Bronwyn: Great. I'll make sure I pop that link in the show notes. Thanks again, Renee.

Listeners, if you found this episode helpful, help us spread the word. Make sure you pop into somebody else's ears. Leave a rating or review. And that's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, catch you next time. Bye.