[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about what it's like to be a neurodivergent therapist.

Many early career mental health workers wonder, do I belong in this profession? If you're neurodivergent, this question can feel even more pressing. From managing self-doubt to deciding whether to disclose your neurodivergence, the experience of being neurodivergent brings unique challenges, but also strengths.

In this episode, we'll explore how neurodivergent shapes our clinical work communication, and our client relationships, and really just our lives. Here to help us out is our wonderful returning guest, Jordan Turner. Hey, Jordan.

[00:00:45] Jordan: Hello.

[00:00:47] Bronwyn: it's always such a pleasure to have you on the podcast, Jordan.

[00:00:50] Jordan: Thank you. I love being here. I love having to chat all things, uh, mental work.

[00:00:55] Bronwyn: Yay. And can you please remind listeners who you are, and I'll ask you what you've been into these days in terms of hobbies.

[00:01:05] Jordan: Uh, okay. I am Jordan Turner. I am an Educational and Developmental Psychologist working in private practice, solo private practice, and I primarily work with neurodivergent folk. And the thing that I'm really into these days is I'm writing a lot. Um, I like to read, but I'm writing a lot right now.

[00:01:27] Bronwyn: Have I asked you what you write about?

[00:01:29] Jordan: I have mentioned before that I wrote some poetry a while back.

[00:01:32] Bronwyn: I remember this. And didn't you publish it as well?

[00:01:36] Jordan: I did, I, it was all about being a mom and stuff, and like a lot of poems about my boobs because as you do, um, when you're a mum, it's like the highlight of conversation.

[00:01:48] Bronwyn: Well, there's a lot going on like with that. Like, I, like, I'm not a mom myself, but I know that like, boobs can hurt, boobs can leak, uh, boobs, like yeah, there's, there's lots of boob conversations. Yeah.

[00:02:00] Jordan: Yeah. People comment on them or like, yeah, I'm getting to the stage. My daughter's three now, and she actually was like, she notices I have boobs now beyond like them being like functional. And she's like, oh, what are those? And I was like, how do I, how do I explain this? Like in an age appropriate way.

Neurodivergence Identity

[00:02:17] Bronwyn: Um, let's move to the current topic. So you work with a lot of neurodivergent clients. How did you come to be interested in neurodivergence ?

[00:02:26] Jordan: I think I'll just do like the spoiler alert. Um, I, along the way I found out I was also neurodivergent, so I'm autistic and ADHD. My sibling was diagnosed very young, like age two autistic and ADHD, and so I kind of had like a, a bit of a knowledge of that. Growing up, wanting to work with like kids and, um, teens when I became a psychologist and then, um, found I really, I like, liked working with kids and teens, that reminded me of my sibling.

And then as I worked more in that space, I was like, wait a second. I really identify with a lot of the problems that my clients are coming up with. And I was like, wait a second. Oh my gosh, am I autistic as well? And spoiler alert. I am. And so I guess that's, yeah, it just, uh, kind of naturally evolved that way. I didn't set out to work in autism 'cause I was like, my, my sibling has autism. And I was like, I've had, I've had enough being surrounded by it, but I can't escape because obviously like my life is autistic.

[00:03:29] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, totally. So did you know when you started your masters that you were autistic? Or did that come later down the track?

[00:03:37] Jordan: No. Right, so I, I didn't know I was autistic, um, until, I was 30 and I am 34 now. So I started my master's and I was doing Ed and Dev. So I got placed in like private practices focusing on autism. I was like, oh man, I can't get away. I be working with late diagnosis autistic people, um, and assessing them and I just love their story so much. And the, the women especially who were late diagnosed were, sounded very, like, some of their stuff sounded very similar, and I was like, yeah, of course. That's, that's what everyone thinks, right?

And then another thing that happened in my master's program was I happened to be doing, uh, like a PD on female presentations on autism. And the presenter was great but I found myself getting really mad. Like, I was like, what? This is, this is just how it is? Like, I'm just shy. I just like to read a lot and, and like somebody in in the crowd somewhere was like, why is it always cats? And then I like got especially mad because I love cats.

[00:04:48] Bronwyn: So you're like, why is this lecture a personal attack on me?

[00:04:51] Jordan: It, it really felt like a personal attack at the time. I was like, this is bullshit. I don't, and I was like totally annoyed by the whole thing. But then I kept working in, in the space of autistic girls and, and, and women and I was like, wait a second. Like, and like people started asking me and I was like, hmm, maybe, I don't know, like the, the hallmarks are there. Like I was very shy, um, shy quote marks. Um, I was socially, like, I had a hard time maintaining friendships as a, as a teen. Loved to read, would read books constantly. Like, like everyone, I think. Generation or like our particular age cohort would read a lot of Harry Potter, right? So I would read the books over and over again, like through rotation. Um, and I read books like so quickly. Like I would finish them in like a day and then get bored.

[00:05:43] Bronwyn: I used, I remember when I used to go travel as a teen, uh, I would pretty much feel like half my suitcase or maybe three quarters with books because I would read them so fast and I was like, which books am I gonna bring? Like, it was just like a huge, like dilemma of my time.

[00:05:58] Jordan: Yeah. And it's an expensive hobby, isn't it? Like, 'cause you, like you finish a book and you can't, like, of course libraries exist, but like... yeah, libraries are your best friend as an autistic girl, right?

[00:06:08] Bronwyn: Yes. I, I literally, like, libraries were so my best friend, um, I think our library card number was 20 numbers, and I had it memorized just so like I could give them my library number and get my card and everything, because if you ordered books online, you could request books online, then you had to enter in your library card. And I was like, it's so annoying getting out my card. I'll just memorize the 20 digits. So that's how, that's how library I was.

[00:06:32] Jordan: Oh, that's good. Like library. fan club all the way.

[00:06:35] Bronwyn: I love the library.

[00:06:36] Jordan: Yeah, so I guess I, I didn't know in my master's. I finished up, my master's found, I really was, I actually, like, when we had to decide what our thesis was, I was like, you know, I really wanna investigate these gender differences more. And so my thesis was on gender differences in autism. And, um, I found that, yeah, women were underdiagnosed and it was like, it felt like I was like unraveling this conspiracy against women who were autistic at the time. And this is kind of like on the precipice of everyone kind of recognizing that women look different.

And, um, I was like, oh my God! There's a whole area that women have not been diagnosed. And so I, I guess I feel like we're going on a tangent here, but basically I didn't realize until like, uh, when I turned 30, I, I got pregnant with my daughter and I was like, um, I, I need to know once and for all because of course autistic need to know exactly like what the, what the, um, hate ambiguity, you know, and I ended up, um, getting the assessment and, and they, they were like, yeah, you are, um, high masker and, and all that.

And then you have like the moment where you get diagnosed and you're like. I tricked them somehow, like I'm not really autistic. Um, and that's so common in like, late diagnosis women as well. Like, they're just like, oh, but maybe I did too much research and I just told them what they wanted to hear. And yeah, so that's a big thing I see in my clients.

[00:08:01] Bronwyn: Oh, that's really interesting. 'cause I was like, well, how would you do that? Like, unless you're a really good actor or something. But I guess if you're just so used to presenting as air quotes, uh, neurotypical or normal, then maybe you, yeah, you could think that,

[00:08:15] Jordan: Yeah, it was just like, 'cause they're like, oh, what if I really am just shy? Or what if I really do, like, I just, I'm just a little bit like weird or something.

[00:08:25] Bronwyn: Do you still feel like, like you tricked them or have you come to have a different perspective on your own diagnosis?

[00:08:32] Jordan: I feel like it took me a while. Like I, I was like, for a while there I was like, oh, I'll just sit with this and kind of see how it feels. And then like the other thing that kind of happens once you get diagnosed is you start to de-mask a little bit and you get more kind of aware of like the, the things you are doing in your life to fit into a neurotypical like, expectation.

And I was like, oh, you know, there's a reason why I hate music playing at any given time. Like it has to be silent in my house. So, oh, there's a reason why I, I have like a meltdown if I don't have like a day to myself. And, and it becomes more obvious the more you reflect on it, and then you're like, okay, like maybe it's true.

And then, yeah, I guess you also have to tru- trust the judgment of the, the person who's done like several different um, measures to kind of diagnose you and kind of see what's going on.

[00:09:26] Bronwyn: Yeah, so they've corroborated it across several measures as well as taken a diagnostic interview and gotten your history, so yeah.

[00:09:34] Jordan: Yeah. And so trust their judgment a little bit too, yeah, and it's, there's like, it feels like that's a thing, imposter syndrome after getting diagnosed, especially in women because women aren't believed in the medical system at all.

[00:09:48] Bronwyn: No. Yeah, medical gaslighting is a real term. It's a real thing.

[00:09:52] Jordan: it's like it's crazy and like the more I'm in it, the more disillusioned I am with like the system, which is probably why I'm in private practice, but that comes up with its own host of difficulties as well.

[00:10:04] Bronwyn: The next tattoo I'm going to get is of Lisa Simpson saying the whole damn system is wrong. Um, and I'm very excited about that. So yes, I resonate strongly with that.

[00:10:13] Jordan: Oh my gosh, I love that.

[00:10:16] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's gonna be a great tattoo. I'm very excited.

[00:10:19] Jordan: Yeah. So yeah, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't like, I'm gonna go in and, for my autistic peeps2 and become a psychologist for them, because I think at the time that I was doing my training. It wasn't kind of okay to be autistic. The stigma was stronger. I think it's like in the last couple of years, for sure, like the stigma is way down. Like people are... they really resonate with that like lived experience .

[00:10:42] Bronwyn: I think you're right because we got, I guess we were doing our like careers and starting out at roughly the same time and, yeah, and in my- in my five plus one, which was in 2017, I have ADHD and no way did I ever dare tell anybody and it was really hard for me, um, because of a few things associated with my ADHD. But I was like, I'm never gonna ask for accommodations. I'm never gonna bring this up. I think now I would treat it differently.

[00:11:11] Jordan: Yeah, it's really interesting. I I know there are so much gains have been made in the last like, five years, roughly, because yeah, when we first started, because now it's, it's, it's the talking point. Like people seek you out if you're a neurodivergent psychologist, if you, if you are working with neurodivergent populations. But, um, a neuro affirming practice is now kind of, I think it's, um, being integrated into like the...

[00:11:36] Bronwyn: ...it's the new competency. So I think from December this year for psychologists, we have to be neurodivergent affirming. Like that's part of our competence now. Um, so everybody should be getting PD this year to make sure that they meet that competence when it comes in in December.

[00:11:52] Jordan: Hit me up if you need it.

[00:11:54] Bronwyn: Yeah.

Yeah, totally hit Jordan up. Are you gifted as well?

[00:11:58] Jordan: Like, I'm twice exceptional. Um, I have high ability. I did score in the gifted range for like fluid reasoning and verbal comp.

[00:12:08] Bronwyn: Oh, very cool. But like, like it's one of those things that's not talked about. So like, because, so I have ADHD, I don't quite meet the criteria for autism, but I find it really easy to communicate with autistic people. And I, I meet some criteria, but not all of them. Um, and then I- I'm also in the range of like mild giftedness, so I think like two standard deviations above. So my processing speed is really fast and my verbal comprehension, um, is also very fast, and that causes chaos with my ADHD, which is impulsivity. And it's like I get everything very quickly and I can do it fast. And then it's like sometimes those are the wrong decisions.

[00:12:49] Jordan: Oh my gosh, that's so true. Yeah, the flip side, like my processing be, it's like in the average range, but like there, there's a variable profile, I guess. I think we'll probably talk about this later on another episode, but variable profiles wreak havoc on like your self concept and like deeply frustrating for people. Yeah. Yours is an interesting profile, like...

[00:13:12] Bronwyn: I know I really can't, it's so hard because I can't find anything about it, so I'll try Googling, like high processing, because they always do the opposite for giftedness. They do like you're really good at working memory, but your processing speed is low. And I'm like, no, I'm the opposite!

[00:13:26] Jordan: So interesting!

Strengths of being a Neurodivergent Therapist

[00:13:28] Bronwyn: Yeah. Ah. But yeah. Okay. So we're both neurodivergent. We wanna talk about what it's like being a neurodivergent therapist, and I thought we could start off with some of the strengths first, so we don't just get into like a deep dark pit of despair. How does that sound?

[00:13:45] Jordan: It's easy to do, right.

[00:13:46] Bronwyn: Yeah. I was like, you know, com compliment sandwich ourselves.

[00:13:50] Jordan: All right. We can do that, yeah.

[00:13:52] Bronwyn: Okay. So what are some of the strengths that you see that neurodivergent practitioners bring to their work that might not always be recognized or valued?

[00:14:00] Jordan: Don't wanna just speak like blanket because everyone's got different strengths and weaknesses I suppose, but, um, in my experience, the, the pattern recognition is a real strength. Recognizing problem behavior, or tricky behaviors that need to be addressed and that keep coming up for the client. So I find that is probably a really big strength.

[00:14:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I noticed that quite early for me as a therapist, and I think clients really appreciate it. So if they'd be saying something and then, I feel just like I'm a big detective, and they'd say something and then I'd be like, but 10 minutes ago you also said this. Is this linked to this? And does that relate to that? And could that be explaining what's happening now? And they're like, whoa.

[00:14:40] Jordan: Totally. Like the, the I expanding the, the, the focus, like drawing connections from things that seemingly unrelated, I think that's a massive strength. Because like the, the different perspective as well, right? Like, so I guess like if we're thinking about neurotypicals as, as being typical, maybe the typical person might not see this, but then someone who's like neurodivergent notices this connection that isn't readily accessible to the majority, for example. which is why I think like Einstein was a genius because like, he probably saw something most people didn't, you know?

[00:15:14] Bronwyn: Is there anything else for you that you feel is a strength or something that you've brought to your work?

[00:15:19] Jordan: I actually like, there's so many strengths. So like it's hard to talk, there's hard to talk about all of them. Because I assess people as well, one of the things that I think is a real strength is my ability, like attention to detail. Like I notice as like my, before I was autistic... before I was autistic, before I was diagnosed, I, I kind of got like this reputation for writing, like really extensive observations of the client. Like to the as degree details, probably not necessary like in the grand scheme, but, um, noticing those details that, like the visual details of, oh, the client's bopping their knee and oh, you know, the kind of sensory detail that you can pick up. Um, I think that probably works for ADHD too, and like, I'm, I guess I'm both, so maybe, I don't know if it's either or, but the inability to filter information so you see so much more than maybe like a neurotypical therapist might.

[00:16:17] Bronwyn: I also find that that's a strength, and I find that's really helpful because I... I guess like, maybe this is where like I find it difficult, but I can pick up on details and then sometimes I don't know what they mean, but then if I talk about it in supervision, then I can figure out what they mean. So I'll pick it up and then the supervisor will be like, oh, could that be this? And I'll be like, oh yeah, but it's good that I'm picking it up.

[00:16:41] Jordan: Totally. No, I get that as well. Like I do have, I, it reminds me of a time where I've, I had this like session and I like beautiful minded something with the client. And then I brought a supervisor and I was like, what do you make of this? I see a pattern here, but I don't really know what it means. Can you please help me?

[00:16:59] Bronwyn: Yeah, please explain. Yeah, yeah, I find that that's a great strength as well. Okay. Other strength?

[00:17:08] Jordan: I think the taking things to the nth degree, that need for specificity for autistic people is really, um, a strength because it's like a dog with a bone. Like you just need to find out the, what, what the answer is. So you, you keep, like, especially like, like if we're thinking about schema therapy, like that drill down technique, that's a really good one for that.

But like for me, like I, I feel like a dog with a bone when I'm like thinking about differential diagnosis, I'm like, is it this or is it something else? And like, sometimes I can get like, spin my wheels a bit because I need to find the clarity in that. And you know, like, don't wanna go into the the weaknesses or, or difficulties, but that can be also hard.

[00:17:50] Bronwyn: I do find that that's a, that's a really big strength as well for neurodivergent therapist. And you know, again, we're generalizing here so everybody have different strength profiles, but I noticed that that's a strength for me as well. But something that I did notice early on is that because I'm so interested, genuinely, in what's happening for clients, I had to stop myself from having a session, become an interrogation. So I only noticed it like a few times and then I caught myself and I was

like, crap, I'm actually interrogating this client, 'cause I wanna know what's happening so bad. They're probably feeling scared. Um, I need to pull back. Um, so something that I do say to clients even at the first session is like, today I'll be asking you a lot of questions and that's simply to understand what's happening for you, and because I'm curious, but I understand that we just met, so you might not wanna answer all those questions. You might wanna sidestep them, and that's completely okay. Please do what you're comfortable with.

[00:18:46] Jordan: Oh man, I wish I, yeah, I wish I did that. I do, I definitely tend to, like, sometimes I will interrogate, especially if the client is not particularly chatty, and that's like a, a boundary thing that I need to work on is like when the client is like, not super then I don't need to be like, okay, let me ask you questions until you talk more and beat you into submission, you know?

[00:19:09] Bronwyn: But it's like, I've always been like that. My mom always tells this story of how when I was in pre-primary there was, uh, there must have been a girl who had selective mutism. And my mom always says that I just talked at her until she, it sounds like she just gave in relented to me. So like, how do I change this characteristic that's always been a fundamental part of me of talking at people to like, get them involved?

[00:19:31] Jordan: I think any kind of strength and weakness or difficulty is, um, it's a double-edged sword. Like I don't, I don't think that, like anything that you think of that could be like that, like interrogating people per se. Yeah. Like your need for information and, and getting the information is, is important. Like, so you might have missed out on information because you were like, oh, social nuance, let's hold back. Whereas like a client would be like, if you ask the direct question, they'd be like, oh yeah, actually, now that you mention it, blah, blah, blah.

[00:20:05] Bronwyn: Maybe this is a good opportunity to talk about the social model of disability, which is the way I always think of social model of disability is like, having shortsightedness would be a disability if we didn't have glasses. But because we have glasses and people have access to glasses, it's not a disability. It's something that we can work with. So likewise, with the things that we're describing as having a double-edged sword, in the right environments and with the right people, they're not negatives at all. They actually help us thrive. I was even thinking that with your detailed observations. I'm like, if you were in a forensic setting, you would be A++. You know, that would be highly valued.

[00:20:41] Jordan: Absolutely. And yeah, I guess that's what, that's one of the things I emphasize to some of my clients is that find work that suits your strengths. And if you're the kind of person who's detail oriented or likes things to be done, just so that look for work, that, that like encourages that. And there are jobs out there for autistic and, and ADHDers that really reward that.

[00:21:05] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. Another strength that I wanted to add was authenticity and directness. You, you kind of mentioned directness before, but you know, I didn't explicitly go out seeking neurodivergent clients when I first started, but they just all sort of came to me and then they stuck with me. And I think it's because I find it very easy to communicate with fellow neurodivergent people, but also I think they appreciate the directness.

So early on in my training. I had a supervisor and she was like, Bronwyn, I don't even set goals with clients, I just chat with people. And I was like, nope, I'm outta here. Um, and, and you know, that style suits some people very well. Absolutely. But for me, I really wanted to be somebody who tells people what we're doing and why.

And then I had supervisors push back and be like, you're kind of pulling back the curtain too much. And I was, and I had to think about that a lot. I had to think about whether I'm. I'm doing that and I'm like ruining the magic of therapy or something. And yeah, it was something that I really grappled with. And then I was just like, no, actually, I think particularly I work with a lot of clients who experience trauma as well, and I see it as recon contain and creating a safe space and structure. Like, here's what I'm doing and why. Here's what this session's going to. Um, here's what I wanna do today, but what would you like to do today? What's important to you? And so I really seek to have a collaborative relationship where we're equal, but yeah, I do feel like that directness is a, is a neurodivergent strength. What are your thoughts?

[00:22:34] Jordan: No, I think that's so true. And like yeah, the, the more detail, the better I, in my view, because, yeah, like you said with neurodivergent folks, the more transparent you are about what you're doing, um, I feel like that helps. And you're right also with trauma, like the more like... -able, able to establish a safe space by saying this is exactly what we're doing.

[00:22:57] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:22:57] Jordan: Obviously you give them autonomy, you lemme know if you feel-

[00:23:01] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, you, you must do this. We're not doing that. No.

[00:23:04] Jordan: So like when I write my reports, I'm, I, um, I err on the overly detailed because I, I feel like if I am diagnosing someone as autistic, they would really appreciate the level detail.

[00:23:15] Bronwyn: Me too. Me too. I've done a report for somebody and I actually inserted more detail in that report because then you're divergent and. They asked for more detail and I said to them, that's absolutely fine. I'll give you more detail. But I said to them as well, I was like, you know, my training actually said, give you less detail than I've already given you, and they were like, that would've enraged me. And I was like, I know that.

[00:23:37] Jordan: I think there's a guideline at the moment, and it might be, it might change by the time this comes out or something, but like people don't report IQ numbers and, oh, there you go. And um, and like, if you go in and, you know, then IQ test gives you an IQ number, like this is probably a hot take, uh, and then you go in and the psych doesn't give you the number.

[00:24:00] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:24:01] Jordan: For me, I would be pissed.

[00:24:03] Bronwyn: Me too. Me too.

[00:24:04] Jordan: Like, I guess you can, you can provide that information, but don't just like, obviously the reason why they withhold that information is specifically because they don't want people to misinterpret it, right? Yeah, 'cause IQ measurements are not like, typically, like, you don't wanna just like see the number and then like generalize. You usually need to explain what's going on there.

[00:24:24] Bronwyn: Yeah, but for me, I'm like, well then give people that context, like don't take away that autonomy from me. Allow me to have it and then explain it to me and interpret it. And I'm smart enough to understand that.

[00:24:37] Jordan: Yeah. And, and that's how I feel as well is like, yeah, give them the opportunity to deter-. Like, I think the other thing is that you have to make it like reader friendly so that I, I would never do an assessment without telling the client about the findings, like, I just need to, like, I, I think that's just good practice anyway. You need to kind of explain like, this is how I came to this. I've, I've explained all this. And also like, I like to give people the opportunity to ask follow up questions or have like a, a follow up session to, to debrief, 'cause if that something doesn't make sense to them, then I want them to tell me and explore.

[00:25:13] Bronwyn: 100%. I really love that as well. I love the, I wonder if that's a neurodivergent strength as well. You know, something just off the cuff that I've found about a difference potentially, and it's such a generalization, but tell me if you've noticed this. I feel like neurotypical people will say, give me feedback, and then when I give them feedback, they get angry at me.

Whereas with neurodivergent people, they're like, give me feedback and, and I genuinely want the feedback and I'm happy to receive it. So like if someone says to me like, can you explain this further? I'm like, yes, absolutely. Um, re- relatable.

[00:25:46] Jordan: Totally. Like honestly, I've gotten into so much trouble by giving people exactly what they asked for in face value, like, I don't, I just can't be, I can't be bothered with trying to dissect whether or not, you mean you actually want feedback or not? Like, are you just asking for politeness or, or do you want me to actually tell you what you, what I really think like.

[00:26:09] Bronwyn: Yeah, I, I err on the side of they don't actually want feedback. And then another line, which I am now taking as slightly threatening is, please don't hesitate to ask me any further questions after I've already asked like 10 questions. And, and then they still put that in and I'm like, Hmm, this is like, don't ask me further questions, I think. And then I stop asking questions and I'm like, I've ano them enough.

[00:26:32] Jordan: Do you know what though? I think that the, the, that feeds into masking, doesn't it? Like the, the subtext of like a question. The, then it puts the, the, the neurodivergent person kind of in a position where they feel, what did they really mean by that? And you spend time and mental load agonizing over what they really mean by that. And that causes autistic burnout and stress and all of the other things. So like, I think since, since being diagnosed, and that was like four years ago, um, I found it kind of freeing just to be like, you know what? I'm just gonna take what you say at face value and fuck you if, if it's wrong, like.

[00:27:15] Bronwyn: Well, yeah, and it's like, you know, even before when you mentioned unmasking, unmasking still makes me feel very afraid because I associate unmasking with getting in trouble. And so, yeah, and it's like, I think neurodivergent people get in trouble all the time. cause uh, it's just so hard.

[00:27:30] Jordan: You do.

[00:27:30] Bronwyn: Yeah. And it's not like, like it'd just be reprimand or like a look of disgust or like, uh, a look of admonishment from somebody or it can be actual, like you've done the wrong thing. Um, and so yeah, unmasking is hard.

[00:27:44] Jordan: I also really hate the, the idea of like having done something wrong, but then nobody says anything about it. So then you're like, like. Did I? Yeah, please tell me. So I can not do it again. Like add it to my, my, my mental log of like all the, the, the, norms that I need to follow.

[00:28:02] Bronwyn: Oh my God, absolutely. Is there any other strength that you wanted to mention?

[00:28:06] Jordan: I think that we kind of alluded to it in, in that whole discussion just then, was that like a neurodivergent client will appreciate the perspective of a neurodivergent clinician. So that lived experience is really highly sought after these days for people who are either exploring neurodivergence or identify as neurodivergent or are neurodivergent for that specificity. Because imagine like being, you know, we're probably talk about this later, so.

[00:28:36] Bronwyn: Okay. Sure. Okay. I agree with that 100% though. I've noticed with working with neurodivergent clients, they've been to several therapists beforehand, and I don't know if they're neurodivergent or not, but anyway, I think one of the things about neurodivergent people is that they do speak directly. They feel like they're asking for things directly, yet they're not receiving the response that they're wanting. And they're like, but I've told you directly what it is that I need here. And so I feel like when you get a neurodivergent therapist, they're able to meet them and it's like, I hear what you're saying directly. I'm gonna meet that need rather than dance around it.

[00:29:07] Jordan: Yeah, and if they can't meet that need, then they'll say so.

[00:29:11] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly.

[00:29:12] Jordan: -refer on as appropriate.

[00:29:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. Which is appreciated.

[00:29:16] Jordan: Yeah, totally. Like transparency I think is, is a huge strength of autistic Autistic ADHD therapists.

Challenges of being a Neurodivergent Therapistzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[00:29:22] Bronwyn: Yes, absolutely. Okay. Let's get into some potential challenges of being a neurodivergent therapist. I've got a few here, but is there something on the top of your head that you wanted to speak to?

[00:29:36] Jordan: I think I have one that's a little bit, like less obvious, and it's like the, the way a neurodivergent person might recognize social hierarchy.

[00:29:44] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:29:45] Jordan: Especially if you're a psychologist or mental health professional working in a system, and being aware that there is a power differential between you and your clients that can, that boundary can be a little less clear to a neurodivergent therapist. So you can, you can be a little bit too friendly or something like that, or like, give the client the impression that your friends, when you're actually the therapist or, like on the broader scale being a bit more like, having issues with authority figures in a system, like for example, if you're at like, at a school and, and you have like your, your code of ethics, but then you have to like follow like the rules of the school as well and they clash, then that might cause like it's hard to kind of recognize authority in that.

And like, I think in my experience, not just as a neurodivergent therapist, but as a like neuro-, like in other workplaces I've had issues with not understanding how to, uh, interact with an authority figure in. So in that like, yeah, in that like, I'm either too friendly or I'm like, I'm a little bit too pushy when I should be like, like...

[00:30:59] Bronwyn: like defer?

[00:31:00] Jordan: Defer or like deferential. But again, like, um, that, that can also be like, flip that, can be a strength for teens who don't respect like authority figures and, and they need that more like friendly, kind of like casual touch to, therapy. As long as you, you establish that, you know, there is a power differential here. Like I am your therapist, and, and again, that's being explicit, but also, I could see that being a problem in a system when I'm working or just because I don't know and I'm like not always aware of that, um, and has been a problem before I was a psychologist.

[00:31:41] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. Same. Me too. I think the way that challenge showed up with me early in my career was yes, I was very friendly. So, and because I speak plainly as well, which is something that I like about my style, I like that I can say words and that clients understand what they mean but sometimes you're right, it can be, I don't know, it's just difficult because on the one hand, we're told that friendliness, warmth is part of the therapeutic relationship. But on the other hand, you do need to maintain those professional boundaries with clients, and it's important that they know the distinction, that they know your boundaries and so that they know what their role is as well in this therapeutic relationship.

And I've, I've worked on that over time, absolutely. Because, and I think the key way that I've worked on it is one, in my initial session and in subsequent sessions... so in the initial session, I'll say to them that this will be a warm, inviting environment that we're building here. But that doesn't mean that we won't have difficult conversations. And so if I see you getting in your own way, then I'll be the person who will gently and empathetically tell you that's what's happening. And so we'll discuss both how you are feeling and how I am feeling, and we can use that to help you achieve your goals. Something like that. And so I flag to them that this isn't gonna be your rainbows and butterflies.

And then the other thing I did was that I wasn't talking about myself excessively, but I actually noticed that maybe I'd just drop in a line here and there and I'd be like, oh, yeah, I relate to that. So it wasn't anything super serious, but I noticed that I was dropping in too many lines that were self-referential to me. And I found if I took those out, then that made things better. And of course, if you've got your own style, where your usual lived experience deliberately as part of the therapeutic process continue, but that's just what worked for me in, in, in being a, a very friendly person.

[00:33:33] Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, it's a, it's a tricky balance because yeah, your lived experience can be, oh God, I keep saying it like it's a strength and

[00:33:41] Bronwyn: It is. Absolutely.

[00:33:42] Jordan: -understand and sometimes deeply empathize with a client. But the flip side of that is that you might have blind spots because you are either going through the same thing as the client or had in the past. And in which case you need to be really mindful of like that countertransference thing. If it gets in the way, they need to be referred on. And that doesn't mean, like, that doesn't mean that you're a failure as a therapist, but you gotta recognize that like, and it sucks because like, like if you do identify really closely with the client's, like lived experience then, then they probably like, feel that, that level of like rapport with you, but it's important on in that space because you don't wanna lose your objectivity 'cause have to be objective of all things.

[00:34:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely, and I think for some people as well... uh, if we're not objective, we can lose sight of the client as a whole person. So I am thinking about this because specifically, I had one example really early on in my career, and they were a person who had narcissistic traits that I wasn't aware of. And I think because I'd lost my objectivity, I was presenting as friendly, engaging, and then I didn't realize that there was this more, I guess, uh, differently needed side that I needed to respond to and manage.

And so I think as a neurodivergent therapist, yeah, if you are relating too strongly, then you can miss that and you just get into trouble. Um, it just, it just gets complex and so it's, yeah, it's very important to be able to recognize.

[00:35:13] Jordan: Yeah, that's like, I think that's probably, especially if your, if your area is neurodivergence, I've been reflecting on this in therapy, oh, sorry, in supervision. Um, and therapy, because therapists should go to therapists too, um, is like, how, how much do I identify with my clients and can I maintain objectivity in that space?

[00:35:34] Bronwyn: Yeah, I've absolutely, that kind of enmeshment.

[00:35:37] Jordan: I think that, that, that might be something that probably a lot of neurodivergent therapists with the, with the, like, people please, like self-sacrificing and all that into it.

[00:35:49] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And I think a key schema amongst neurodivergent therapists as well is social alienation. I say that because that's like one of my key schemas, and that one is basically I feel different to other people. Um, and so when you meet somebody who you feel a connection to, it can be really like, wow, like there's, because you just feel alone like a lot of the time.

Like I've said it in previous podcasts, but yeah, knowing how you are feeling and reflecting on that and not being afraid to bring that up in supervision and really talk with yourself about it is so important.

[00:36:20] Jordan: Yeah, that's interesting that you say that. 'cause I think about that and feeling othered, is something that I felt a lot when I was younger and without really knowing why, obviously, and that manifested in my, like wanting to help others who felt that way, like younger folk that feel that way now. And so that is something, be mindful of.

[00:36:40] Bronwyn: And then we can get into a rescuer role.

[00:36:43] Jordan: That's right. So I need to be like aware of whether that's playing out and if it is, then I need to do something about it.

[00:36:49] Bronwyn: yeah. Exactly. I wonder, do you have a neurodivergent supervisor?

[00:36:53] Jordan: Yeah. Oh, I do.

[00:36:55] Bronwyn: Because I was just wondering, I was like, well, I wonder if maybe 'cause neurodivergent people, we might have different schemas and ways of seeing the world and ways of seeing ourselves, and maybe it might be harder to pick that up if we don't have like a mentor who is neurodivergent themselves. Like being able to be like, oh, this might be occurring for you. I don't know.

[00:37:11] Jordan: So I have a couple supervisors. One of them is neurodivergent, um, but she doesn't work with neurodivergent folk. Like they are like incidentally come in, but that's not like her area of expertise or you know, like the her client focus I suppose. Um, so it's interesting hearing from her and she bizarrely like uh, in fact, I said this to her the other day, is that I find sometimes her really challenging.

[00:37:34] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:37:35] Jordan: The way that she challenges me is, is, and I lean into that because like, she's challenging my biases that, that are playing out in therapy

that.

[00:37:46] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. I have to say like one of my earliest mentors, and she's now my friend. Very direct style of communication. Not neurodivergent, but just like a no bullshit person. And I really, I really love her for that, and she's so good at being empathetic as well, but she would just kill me with a, with a single line and be like, but Bronwyn, you haven't seen this. And I'd be like, oh, you're so right. And that hurts.

[00:38:08] Jordan: Yeah, it funny?

[00:38:09] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:38:10] Jordan: I dunno about you, but like my particular like style of therapy is I'm, I'm very warm and, and like person centered and so like, and, and it's not that different to, to how I present like any other context. Like I'm just friendly. Like obviously I'm probably a bit more like professional in my work.

[00:38:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, I like the only difference is I pretty much laugh less, and I say shorter sentences, uh, and I listen more. I talk. I don't talk very much actually in therapy. I try to reduce the amount that I talk.

[00:38:39] Jordan: I was the other day, I'm prone to 'speeching', monologuing.

[00:38:44] Bronwyn: If I do monologue, I will like be like, I'm sorry, I'm just gonna monologue at you for a second and then I'll jump back. I'm sorry.

[00:38:53] Jordan: Yeah, there's like a, like, uh, if I'm giving Psychoed, I'm like, can I just monologue for a second and tell you this thing? Yeah, um, or like if I'm, I'm hyping a client up and doing like, um, limited re-parenting, like I'll, there's like a monologue involved in that usually.

But yeah. Oh gosh. I worry about that because like, I'm extra mindful of like, like I'm friendly and I am open and I'm pretty transparent as a person, but I wanna be mindful that I'm not accidentally being inappropriate with my boundaries because I find those boundaries hard as neurodivergent person.

[00:39:28] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I totally relate to that. And I will say that I've had to put heaps of extra work into that because I value transparency and, and that's what's gotten me in trouble is like sometimes I've been too transparent at the expense of thinking of how that would affect the client. And so like that was a big learning curve for me, that it's like even the, I value transparency up here, like very highly, you also have to balance that with. Thinking about how the words you say can be interpreted and understood by the client and how that would affect them, and be ready if you wanna say that to them to deal with that.

Um, if it's not appropriate and you can't work that out, then you don't say it. And that can, uh, not sit right with a neurodivergent person. And then I was like, so you want me to lie to the client? It was like, no, no, no. You just wanna be appropriate with what you're saying. And I was like, okay, I can deal with that.

[00:40:20] Jordan: It makes sense that like it's sometimes you, it doesn't connect in that moment, right? Like you're just like, this is what I would want. I just want them to tell me blah, blah, blah. And then like you kind of, and I guess that's the impulse of it as well, is like you might just say exactly what you're thinking when maybe there needs to be a little bit of nuance to protect feelings.

[00:40:39] Bronwyn: Yes. Yep, exactly. Um, yeah, so I guess maybe that's something that I wanted to touch on with the challenge is that, thinking about that, having to think about it in that way and do this mental load, I guess. I don't know if neurotypical people have to deal with the same mental load that we do as neurodivergent people, but, uh, that can be very draining. And I've, I've written down here as well, like listening deeply all the time, like regulating your own emotions, maintaining attention, um, shifting attention. This can be more draining for some neurodivergent folk, um, and increase our vulnerability for burnout. Is that something that you've noticed?

[00:41:15] Jordan: Oh, a hundred percent. I have a very limited social battery as it is, and so I, you know, our job is socializing and being like the ideal socializing kind of person too, like being the ideal person to talk to in a situation where you, you need support. And so, there's only so many people you can be that person for in a day or in a week. And like, if you stretch yourself too thin in particular, it starts bleeding into your like, like how you interact with people outside of work. You know, you start feeling more like depleted and less bandwidth for, for like the personal support of like people around you, such as like family members, and friends, and stuff like that. So in that way, yeah. Like I, I can see that so, so much. And I, I, I honestly, like, I think that the, the job, like, I don't think I work a full caseload. Like I-

[00:42:12] Bronwyn: Neither.

[00:42:13] Jordan: I, really couldn't, like, I don't think I could work more than, like, I was thinking about this when I was starting my private practice. Um, like I did 12 billable hours per week when I was in group private practice and when I was a contractor, and that felt manageable for me. That would've been like maybe two and a half days, right.

Um, now, because I'm also doing like the admin stuff and the emails and all of that, and the switching, the task switching. That's the thing that's getting me right now, that I actually don't know if I can see 12 bill or do 12 billables in a week anymore.

I have to do fewer than that which is bad , because obviously I have to make a living. But I also need to weigh my, like, you can't make a living if you burnt out either. So it's, it's, it's a really tricky balance. Like what do you do in that space? Like, and I think that's why there's like so many like, advertisements for like passive income and here's some workshops that you can develop and stuff like that because people are recognizing that like you have to conserve your energy.

[00:43:17] Bronwyn: I agree. Yeah, I think there's a lot of that. I would be, I wish we had data on it. I wish we had national data for psychologists, for mental health professionals who are therapists of, how many clients do you see a week? 'Cause I reckon, I reckon it's the minority that would be able to see air quotes full caseload like five days a week, or even six clients a day. Yeah, that would be my suspicion.

[00:43:43] Jordan: I also wanna know like what is the quality of their therapy and what kind of people are they working with and are they doing like manualized therapy or are they doing like curated therapy because there's mental load in that as well.

[00:43:56] Bronwyn: Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, 'cause I, I resonate with you. I, I feel tired out from therapy. It's really draining and I think as a neurodivergent person, we try so hard to give the best service to our clients. I think we have high standards for ourselves. I don't like it if I'm not doing my best for somebody.

[00:44:16] Jordan: Yeah, totally. Oh, I hate it. Like, and I, I'm a perfectionist. I've always been, and I just like it, because I, I think that feeds into that autistic all or nothing kind of thoughts as well. Like it has to be perfect or it's terrible.

[00:44:29] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. Yeah, I started giving like an overall rating to my sessions and I'd be like, good, average, eh, room for improvement, but like if its anything other than good. I'm like, nah, it was an average session, blah. I feel awful.

[00:44:50] Jordan: And the thing about that is, and I heard this like I, I don't know where I heard this, but that might not, that might be how you perceive it, but the client like, might have thought that was like, revolutionary.

[00:45:02] Bronwyn: Like, she said something amazing!

[00:45:04] Jordan: You're like, oh my God, I was so like, bleh that session, you know. So it's interesting because like what we experience as the therapist is not the same as what the client experiences.

[00:45:17] Bronwyn: It is so true. There's um, there was like, I remember during my training there was an example of a therapist, it might've been Yalom like, everything's Yalom, so I'll just say it's Yalom. Um, but I think he did this experiment where he wrote his perspectives on sessions. Then he got his patients to write their perspectives on the sessions. And they compared, were they similar? Were they different? Completely different. And so he would be exactly as we were saying, like this was a rubbish session. I felt like there was some resistance between us and a power struggle. And the clients like everything was great. I had a good time. Um, we made some good progress.

[00:45:50] Jordan: And he obviously knows what he's talking about, right? Like, he's done this for years. But what the heck? Just on that note, how did he do it for so long?

[00:45:59] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:45:59] Jordan: Like anyone do this for so long? Like, I don't know?

[00:46:02] Bronwyn: I, well, it's a question I've asked myself and I've been like, how do I survive in this career, full stop. But also as a neurodivergent person, I'm not sure I can keep on doing therapy full time, which is why whenever I get a very experienced psychologist on the podcast now I've taken to asking them, I'm like, how are you doing this? And it's like, it's for the listeners, but it's also for me.

[00:46:25] Jordan: Probably like of course you Yeah. Like, I, I so understand that. And then, it's, it's interesting because, um, thinking about where we are in our career, 'cause we are like, we're, we're kind of pushing, we're still early career, but we're pushing mid-career now.

[00:46:40] Bronwyn: I'm pushing mid-career now, yeah.

[00:46:42] Jordan: I think like five is like when you're starting to push mid career and that's when you start having like this crisis of like, am I doing the right thing or do I like... and I guess that's, I, I wonder if that's more salient for neurodivergent folks because they're more prone, like they're prone to burnout, like autistic and neurodivergent kind of burnout in general, but also like this is a really taxing profession.

[00:47:03] Bronwyn: It is really taxing.

[00:47:04] Jordan: is off the cuff of your, you like it, obviously this will be released later, but like off your, your burnout episodes with Matt, so, so true for a lot of of people in psychology

[00:47:17] Bronwyn: I think we're tired. Yeah, we are tired.

[00:47:19] Jordan: I don't know, like is it, has it always been this way or is it worse now because like it's post COVID and everyone's traumatized like.

[00:47:25] Bronwyn: Well, it's interesting because I, okay, so I'll tell you this story. A few years ago in the Neurodivergent Facebook group, I'd made a post because I was about to do two days of face-to-face training, and I was really scared because I get super burnt out when I do two days of face-to-face training. And so I wanted tips on how to manage this.

And so I said to them like, uh, the lights hurt me. Um, being in constant social interaction hurts me. I feel like my mental health's like noticeably deteriorates when I do this full day of training, 'cause I can't get any breaks. I can't, I can't do the things that I usually do to keep me. Well, any tips?

And then the feedback I got was like, I think we all experience this, like neurotypical and neurodivergent, but we don't say it. And then a really interesting comment was like that they said that neurodivergent folks kind of, uh, break the ice almost in a way about these things that everybody's thinking and feeling, but they just don't say it. And so I feel like we're the leaders and we're like, hey, this is shit. And then everybody's like, oh, it is too. Um, so in as to your burnout question, I think everybody's experiencing it, but we might just not be talking about it.

[00:48:31] Jordan: Yeah. Totally. I'm, I'm thinking of Greta Thunberg, who's like, it's just like, fuck everyone for ruining the environment like she was, and she's autistic as well, so...

[00:48:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. She's so great. I love, I love Greta.

[00:48:43] Jordan: I know it's just like everyone hates her because she's not like, personable. But I was like, no, she's, she's autistic. She's like, she's being authentically like enraged as she should be.

[00:48:52] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Authentically enraged. Yeah, it's, um, I think I've said this on the podcast before, but, um, my brother has an intellectual disability and cerebral palsy, and he also has a vision, disability, and I get super passionate about how people treat him and people with disability in general. And so I actually don't work with people with disability because I feel unable to stay in my psych role. And I'm like, no, I just can't, I can't hold back.

[00:49:17] Jordan: You are so like, ah, I wish I had that insight. Like, I feel like I've, because my, my, my sibling was like, before I was like diagnosed autistic, I was like, I have a sibling who has, who's autistic, you know, like I said, has autism, and I was like. So I have a unique insight, but I'm not like, and I was like being a, like autistic adjacent was like my marketing strategy and then it's like, now it's like you, if you are autistic, it's a thing.

But yeah, you like, I, I kind of think that like, maybe I need to reflect on that and like be like, yeah, if it's too close to home, is it okay for me to work in the space? Like how do I like pull it back a little bit?

[00:50:00] Bronwyn: Yeah. And obviously, yeah, not, uh, this is not a, a criticism of anybody who does work in the disability space and has also got loved ones with disability. It was just, it's a personal thing. It's just for me, I was like, I cannot tone it down. I get too angry straight away because of my ADHD impulsiveness. I can't hold it back. And so, and I was like, medication can't do that for me either.

[00:50:21] Jordan: No, that's so true though. Like, you're right. Like I, I get angry on behalf of my clients and I think that maybe that's, it galvanises me, but I also don't know how like that could be a problem. Like if I, if it means that impacts my objectivity, then that's a problem.

[00:50:36] Bronwyn: Yeah. 'cause I can send really good letters as well. Like that's a strength of mine as well. So like if I had a client with a disability say, for example, and then I couldn't hold myself back. I'm like, as a very privileged person who has a high level of education, I'm very happy to use that to assist people who are in vulnerable positions. And if I know that I can be of help, I will send a scathing letter. I will send an influential letter, and I'll help you get what you need. Um, but yet it moves... I could be moving outside my role. I could say shit that makes shit worse. Um, and so, yeah, it's, it's better for me to not be part of it.

[00:51:11] Jordan: That's food for thought. Yeah.

[00:51:13] Bronwyn: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:51:14] Jordan: I've definitely had clients in the past who reminded me of my sibling and even like myself as a younger person, that it's important to, to keep that in mind.

Imposter Syndrome and Disclosure

[00:51:23] Bronwyn: Mm. There's two things that I wanted to talk about. This is just gonna be a longer episode. Um, two things I wanted to talk about. Uh, number one was I wanted to talk about imposter syndrome, and then I wanted to talk about disclosure. Uh, well actually, which one did you wanna do first?

[00:51:38] Jordan: Your call.

[00:51:39] Bronwyn: Uh, let's do imposter syndrome. 'cause I'm keen to hear your take on this. Do you feel like you have it? Do you feel like the neurodivergence is part of that or different?

[00:51:50] Jordan: I think I do have imposter syndrome. I don't think I'm alone in that. I don't know if you can be a psychologist without imposter syndrome. Like I feel because... Because, because we don't show our true selves to people. Like as authentic as we can be and transparent as we can be in session, uh, we are messy people behind the scenes that have issues just as much as the the next person and like lose our shit over things and, and talk, like we talk the talk, but then we might go home and like, like our, our house is a fucking mess or something, when we're talking about executive functioning skills or, you know, so, so there is an element of imposter syndrome to the role of psychologists, I think.

As neurodivergent person, I don't know. I find it hard to separate. I think that there's, there's an element to like, I think being a psychologist in the room is masking, like, I don't think you can not mask as a psychologist, that's part like, and you don't even have to be neurodivergent to mask.

[00:52:58] Bronwyn: No, you need to take on that professional tone.

[00:53:02] Jordan: Yeah. Like you're, you're performing a role. And so in that way, like. I, I just don't know if like, I think that's probably, it feels stronger for other people, but people who are like, sorry for, for, um, autistic and ADHD or, but people who are like high maskers anyway, I don't know if they know any different. It would always feel like an imposter, like no matter what scenario.

[00:53:26] Bronwyn: um, what do you think of this idea like. I guess I'll frame it in terms of me, but sometimes I just feel like I don't belong because of like the different ways I think about things or like, I'm like, other people seem to get this so easily, like there must be something about me that's that's not belonging. And I feel like that's part of my neurodivergence thoughts, resonance, differences?

[00:53:47] Jordan: Feel like I was actually thinking about this with like as like as far as billable hours goes, like, I don't think I could do more than 12. Like that's, that feels weird and to me, like even in my personal life, like I really struggle with the identity of mother and, and like all that, that's, and I know that's linked to my neurodivergence, like that's part of, but among other things like, well, it's not exist into a therapy session, but um, there's just. Yeah, I think there is this element of why is it so hard for me, and the reason why it's so hard, and this is what we tell our clients is because it's not designed for us. It's the, the system is not designed for us, so we need to change the system to be more help, like more accommodating to us or step outside the system, which is kind of the reason why I'm in private practice, because I can change the system within my, my little window to suit me.

[00:54:46] Bronwyn: Yes, exactly. Yeah. There's a high level of control over your tasks and how you do things, which is good. Um, so you don't feel like an imposter in being a therapist?

[00:54:59] Jordan: I mean, I think there's an element of like, am I a good therapist? Like, I don't really know. Because I, I think I'm like, there, there's evidence to suggest that I am. But like, who knows? Really? Because it takes like one person to shatter your confidence, you know?

[00:55:19] Bronwyn: It really does.

[00:55:20] Jordan: Yeah, if you're like a, a perfectionist and like somebody is unhappy and like, just to like clarify, this is something that some my supervisor said the other day was that just because a client is unhappy doesn't mean that you're not doing your job like-

[00:55:36] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:55:37] Jordan: -you might be like, they might be pissed off, but that's part of the growth that they need to experience in therapy.

[00:55:44] Bronwyn: It is so true, and it's something to remember, um, because yeah, therapy isn't always gonna be comfortable for people and they're not always going to think that you're a great person. And that's sometimes that's part of it. It's like, I'm angry at you because you told me something that I was hiding from myself and now I have to confront that. And yeah, that can be hard for clients to deal with, but it doesn't mean that you've done bad. It, it actually is that you've done something to help facilitate that change in reflection.

[00:56:12] Jordan: To hold that as a therapist for someone to be mad at you. Like as somebody whose, whose like whole career is to help people and to want people to, to, to thrive and, and, and feel better, that can be really hard. And I think that's, um, in my thesis, I was looking at empathy in particular. Autistic women in particular, experience more empathic distress. So more distress when they felt emotions than others.

[00:56:42] Bronwyn: I totally relate to that 'cause the way, 'cause I've had to think about it. I've had to think about it deliberately. And the way that I cope now with that is I recognize that I can be empathetic, but I have to not have a mental image in my head. If I start imagining things, then I get distressed. And so I had to train myself to have that emotional distance. Yeah, so I've had to think about it because it, it was, it was too much.

[00:57:06] Jordan: And with that like kind of thinking as well, then you start being like, if I'm too distant, am I gonna become a bad therapist because I can't empathize? Like what? No, that's the, that's the, that nuance, the nth degree of the specificity that a, that a neurodivergent therapist navigates every single day that they work.

[00:57:26] Bronwyn: yeah, absolutely. 100%. Really interesting.

Okay, the other thing I wanted to talk about is. Oh yes. So whether or not to disclose your neurodivergence to clients, um, do you do this? If so, how have you approached this?

[00:57:40] Jordan: So this is a, this is an interesting one because. Um, the way the profession is, is, is developing at the moment, right? At the moment. I feel like the status quo is to divulge it. Like people wanna know if you are. Um, and it's actually like, like sometimes like a marketing strategy, like I, if people want you to be, they want that lived experience so that because they wanna it a surefire, that person understand that.

So it's really interesting to think about this because you don't know, again, like, 'cause there's the person, like how enmeshed can you get with a client if you have this same lived experience, but also, you know, like, oh, I'm getting muddled up. I'm thinking, I'm like, there's so many elements.

[00:58:30] Bronwyn: No, there is. I mean, it could be, it could be a podcast episode in itself and maybe we'll do a bigger one on this. 'cause I do think it's actually a really big topic. Um, I'll give you the scary perspective that I heard from a lawyer who told me directly that they'd reckon it's bad to, bad to put on your website that, that you've got lived experience. They anticipate that there will be complaints in the future related to that. AHPRA complaints. And I was like, yeah, that's scary. Thank you.

[00:58:55] Jordan: Oh my god, yeah.

[00:58:57] Bronwyn: Yeah, but you know, that's one law- lawyer's perspective. Um, so there's that. But then there's the other perspective, which is like this whole lived experience movement and people wanting autonomy and choice over their providers and wanting them to, wanting to know that when they go see a provider, they're going to receive an inclusive, affirming experience. And sometimes you can't be guaranteed that. And it hurts every time that you have a negative provider experience.

[00:59:24] Jordan: Yeah. And there the amount of, um, especially late diagnosis that, um, are not believed or not understood or, or minimized. Like if you've been diagnosed younger, then like people, they, um, like infantalize you or if, like, especially if they're neurotypical, but like there's kind of like less ah, risk of that I suppose as a, if your therapist is neurodivergent. The flip of this is, um, when you think about other people of all their cultures and minorities, sometimes they want a, like a therapist that has a similar like, lived experience to 'em as well. And is, is this the same? Can we use this as a, is it like the same or is it different? Like, because then like if people are thinking of, like, neurodivergence as being like a disability or, or something that somehow like makes you less, um, then they would use that as a reason for you to say, well, maybe you shouldn't be, like, a therapist because X, Y, and Z.

In my personal experience, like I've obviously like out as a neurodivergent person, like, because I'm announcing it on a podcast, we're talking about it, but it's not something that I used in my, like marketing material or on my website because I don't, it feels a little bit icky to me to, to, to be like, you should see me 'cause I'm autistic.

[01:00:43] Bronwyn: I don't, I don't use it in marketing and I don't... very, very rarely do I disclose in sessions. It, it's like I could count on one hand, even less, like maybe once or twice I've ever done it in the years that I've been a psych that I've disclosed that I'm neurodivergent. And it's been for a specific like purposeful reason, but I don't, because I guess I don't really see a need for my particular clients. Like I know that. Uh, like we get along, but they haven't asked me and then they haven't needed to confirm that because we are just working well together. And maybe they'll, they, maybe they can assume it's like, I'm really knowledgeable about neurodivergence. Um, and so I'll tell them stuff about it and so maybe they know, or maybe they just think I'm well educated on it, whatever. Um, but yeah, it's not something that I personally bring into, into my therapy or marketing.

[01:01:32] Jordan: So we, we're a little bit different than that, is that like I sometimes we'll tell people straight up like in, so I don't advertise it for people who are looking for a therapist, but if I'm on the phone and I'm talking to a client, a potential client, and seeing if we're a good fit, if it feels appropriate, I will tell them that I am neurodivergent.

[01:01:53] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[01:01:53] Jordan: But I won't, um, like, that's not like marketing material for me. But on the other hand, like if I don't say it, and for a long time I didn't tell anyone they usually clock it and eventually, like, they usually go, are you autistic? Like, uh, because they, they're direct and I'm like, uh, yeah, like, or maybe, or, yeah. And so like, it's funny because I got diagnosed, um, after becoming a, like a fully registered psychologist, I was working with a, a client between the, I was undiagnosed and diagnosed and I told her at the end of a session one day, she's like, I knew it. And I was like, obviously like -

[01:02:35] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[01:02:36] Jordan: -to the surprise of no one, Jordan.

[01:02:38] Bronwyn: Yeah. Rolls eyes. Yeah.

[01:02:42] Jordan: I kind of feel like, like the other element of this is like, do you have to be neurodivergent to work with neurodivergent people?

[01:02:51] Bronwyn: Uh, see that's a good question too. I don't think so, is my ah, split second. Thinking about it, what do you think?

[01:02:58] Jordan: Yeah, I also don't think so. I don't think you need to, like, I think, uh, um, I think that a neurodivergent psych might have the benefit of lived experience, but that doesn't make them an appropriate therapist for either. Like if they don't, they're like, they have their lived experience, but if they're not particularly knowledgeable about like the science and the data behind it and all that, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily gonna be a better therapist than somebody who is maybe neurotypical, but has done a lot of work in that space. And, and obviously we want someone who is neuroaffirming.

[01:03:32] Bronwyn: Exactly. Yeah. So don't try and like, tell me I'm bad or wrong is, is pretty much what I'm looking for. Like Yeah. 'cause I already, sometimes I feel that way. So yeah, as a, as a provider, I wouldn't want you to try and like say that you can cure me and stuff, but I do want help. Usually the things that I want help with are like understanding myself, being less critical of myself, that kind of thing.

[01:03:55] Jordan: Yeah. And that's, that's, something that is not, I mean, it's more prevalent in neuro divergent folk, but it's not unique to them. There's lots of people who are neurotypical, who have low self-worth and and feel othered and, um, have imposter syndrome and, and struggle with work or feel burned out.

[01:04:12] Bronwyn: Yeah, like literally if a neurotypical therapist, if I ask them a question, they answer the question first, then we can get along. If they do this thing where I ask them the question, then they're like, why have you asked that question? Oh, we're not gonna get along.

[01:04:25] Jordan: No.

[01:04:26] Bronwyn: Um, you can ask me why I've asked that question after you answer the question.

[01:04:29] Jordan: Oh, so annoying. Like what? No, I get it. Like, they want you to reflect on, there's a, there's a method

[01:04:35] Bronwyn: I get it. And you can ask me, you can ask me that, but, but answer the question first and then you can ask me why I've asked that question. I'm very happy to give that to you.

[01:04:43] Jordan: Yeah. I don't think it's a ruling in, or a ruling out factor for neuro, because like there are neurotypical folk who are gonna be better at pointing out things that a neurodivergent therapist might be blind too.

[01:04:57] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. I think it's, yeah, I think it comes back to like client choice and control and it's like they can select who they think would work best for them. And I don't think you need to be neurodivergent to help a neurodivergent client. Just don't be, I wanna say just don't be a dick bag. But I guess the professional thing to say is, but be neurodivergent affirming.

[01:05:16] Jordan: Oh, I was gonna say, just don't be an asshole, like.

[01:05:18] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[01:05:19] Jordan: I, I, and you know, like that's, but that's true for anyone, like. Um, and that's part of our competencies. And it's actually like changing, right? Like, so you have to be neuro affirming by the end of, you know, December. Like, um, that's like a non-negotiable. You shouldn't be like, just like medical modeling, autistic and ADHD by, by, the end of the year.

[01:05:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, 100%. Okay. I think we'll start wrapping up. Maybe we can offer a hopeful message, like an uplifting one. What do you hope listeners will take away from our conversation today? Like if there is a neurodivergent listener who is like, oh God, I don't know if I can do this. What are we gonna say to them? What are we? What are we? Yeah.

[01:06:06] Jordan: Um, you're not alone. It's hard for lots of neuro divergent folk, um, because it's not just you, seek support with peers. Other people are feeling it too. Like, this profession is fucking hard. Like, it's just hard. It's hard if you're neurotypical. It's hard if you're neurodivergent and -

[01:06:25] Bronwyn: It's hard.

[01:06:26] Jordan: -like different reasons, you know, like... bronwyn and I are here for you.

[01:06:33] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[01:06:33] Jordan: We, we, um, we get it. Like, and, and so it's not, you're not, uh, defective if you find, if you're finding it hard, this is kind of par par for the course. Like this is what you would expect. This is a hard gig. Doesn't matter who you are.

[01:06:50] Bronwyn: Beautiful. I love that. And I guess I, I would hope that listeners would take away that being a neurodivergent therapist, you have a lot of strengths. There are so many strengths like Jordan and I could have gone on about the strengths, but I love that we think about things differently. We have particular skills that really bring out the best in the work that we do, and we have so many strengths.

There are some challenges that we face as well, but like, I don't know about you Jordan, but it might've been a steeper learning curve, but I have overcome like a lot of those challenges, like the hyper empathy, like the feeling like I'm too friendly and then how to manage that. It's like I've thought about a lot of these things and it does get better and or manageable.

[01:07:36] Jordan: Yeah. I think that being introspective about that and reflecting on your, your experience and, and learning and growing is part of being a therapist. Like we can't, you can't be a perfect therapist, right from the get. So like, we're gonna make these, we we're gonna make these mistakes where, where we might be a little bit too friendly or like, um, need to reset a boundary or, I don't know, like space out in the session for a second. Go, oh God, what was he saying again? Oh can you repeat?

[01:08:06] Bronwyn: Oh my God. Literally done that? Yeah.

[01:08:11] Jordan: I think autistic and ADHD do that, but I would not be surprised if a neurotypical person, especially functioning fluctuates for everyone.

[01:08:21] Bronwyn: Well, here's the difference. So when it happened to me, when I zoned out for a sec and then I came back, I was transparent and I told the client, I'm sorry, I've zoned out for a sec. And please repeat what you say. It's important to me.

[01:08:32] Jordan: I think that there was an element of authenticity in that I'm recognizing you as a human, like not like someone who's lazer focused on, I think there's imagine intensity of someone who's like, I'm listening to your every word.

[01:08:45] Bronwyn: I literally got that feedback from a client early on as well. It's like, stop nodding so much. I know you're paying attention. And I was like, and I was like, yep. That's so true. I am nodding too much. Thank you.

[01:08:56] Jordan: Oh.

[01:08:58] Bronwyn: Clients are our best teachers, truly. Anyway.

[01:09:03] Jordan: Yeah.

[01:09:05] Bronwyn: Um, thanks so much for listening, listeners. I think we could talk about this forever. Um, it's, there's so much to it, but I really hope you got something out of this episode. Jordan, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and yeah, it's just been so insightful and thank you so much.

Listeners, if you found this episode helpful, um, please support Mental Work by following the podcast. Leave a rating or review. I would love a new review. I haven't had a review in a while. If you wanna leave a written review, that would be fab. Or share the podcast with a friend or a colleague, it really does help get these important conversations out there.

That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.