[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for mental health workers. I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about what actually makes a job satisfying and whether mental health work measures up many early career mental health workers and to the field expecting a fulfilling and meaningful career, but the reality can sometimes feel different. Exhausting caseloads, emotional burnout and admin overload can take a toll. We entered this profession so that we could help other people and have a good time.

So what actually leads to job satisfaction in mental health and how can we apply this knowledge to make our work lives more sustainable and rewarding? In this episode, we're breaking down key research backed factors that contribute to job satisfaction and how they play out in mental health work. We've been told that you should just follow your passion, but the reality seems different.

Let's dive into it today with our guest, Marie Vakakis, and this is a collaboration between me, the Mental Work Podcast, and Marie, and we're really excited to have this conversation with you. Stay tuned.

[00:01:07] Marie: Listeners, so this was a topic that Bronwyn suggested. Very cool. Based on an article on the 80000hours.org website. Tell me how did you find this before you sent it to me and we're like, this is one we have to talk about.

[00:01:21] Bronwyn: Basically, so I found out about this organization called 80,000 Hours way back in, I think 2010. I was like 19, 20, and I was thinking, what do I wanna do with my life? I had, I just finished my undergrad psych degree and I didn't know what I wanted to do, and so I was Googling online and I came across this great organization called 80,000 Hours. I believe they are funded either by Harvard or Oxford, some fancy university, and they've got lots of backing, which leads them to undertake research and evaluation into careers, and they had developed this career guide about how to have a satisfying work life.

And I'll just tell you about the 80,000 hours name. So the 80,000 hours refers to the amount of hours that most people have in their work life. So I think it's like a 40 hour week over 40 years, and that turns into 80,000 hours.

This is a really cool guide. It was updated in 2023, which is why I thought that it'd be cool to talk about it because it's still recent, it's still relevant. And they have a framework for understanding what makes jobs satisfying and they bust that myth that you should just follow your passion, which is often the core advice that is given to people. It's like, well, just do what you love and then you'll have a satisfying work life. And I really like this article 'cause it flips it on its head.

[00:02:36] Marie: Great. And I did love this article. We, um, had a bit of a refresh. Well, I part read it and then reread it today, so it's fresh in my mind. I have heard that and I, I wanna start off with that myth of follow your passion because, and the article talks about, it actually has like a little graph of like... It maps it out on a, as a defining piece of career advice. And it's sort of got, you know, we've got the, the two axes and at the bottom we've got the sort of 1985, 1990, it grows up to 2015. And then up to, um, just before, when did this get reviewed? A few years ago.

[00:03:07] Bronwyn: Yeah, 2023

[00:03:08] Marie: And it's sort of. Almost, you can not see the line. And then at around 1995, '97, '98, it just starts to steadily go up.

[00:03:18] Bronwyn: It explodes.

[00:03:18] Marie: It explodes. So this is not advice that our parents would've had. They weren't told that. And I know, I mean, migrant families, there was no pa- What's this passion? It is like, yeah, it was absolutely ridiculous. The values were very much around status and security and stability and providing and passion was, they would've laughed at that. It was very unusual...

[00:03:43] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:03:43] Marie: Um, in, in my, my family's culture, and I imagine different migrant groups would have different values. So maybe this is, um, this will change, but that was, it was crap, this follow your passion.

[00:03:54] Bronwyn: Yeah. Absolutely. Um, like, and that was the advice that I got when I was choosing my uni courses. It was like, just do what you like. And I was like, all righty then. So I chose psychology because I really liked, uh, psychology in high school. I took it as a subject and I was like, all righty, I'll just do this then. Okay.

[00:04:11] Marie: Yeah, same. Yeah, I did, I changed schools and then, um, they had psychology as an elective like, oh, that sounds cool. Yeah. I was like, I like this teacher. She's really cool. All right. I'll study that at uni. But that was it.

[00:04:22] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:04:22] Marie: Like there was no other, I just liked it.

[00:04:25] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:04:26] Marie: So is it, is it, is it a scam? Is it bullshit?

[00:04:29] Bronwyn: Um, I think it is. Yeah. I mean, short answer, yes. I think if you are following your passion, a lot of things would have to go right by luck and circumstance for that, follow your passion to be born true and have a satisfying career like you would have to follow your passion. Your passion would also happen to be a job where it's in demand, it pays well, and it has excellent environmental circumstances.

[00:04:54] Marie: What about this idea of not having to work hard? Like if you do what you love, you don't end up working a day in your life. And I'm like, I'm in private practice. I do what I love and I work every single day for so many hours. How do we, have we forgotten about the, have we like the struggle actually being something we like? Like I love hiking.

[00:05:12] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:05:13] Marie: The satisfaction of getting to the top of a mountain. It's not just, I don't wanna just get like airdropped to the top. That's not the bit, it's the struggle, the perseverance, the, the satisfaction at the end. There's something in the struggle. Is there this myth that if you love something, there's no struggle?

[00:05:30] Bronwyn: I guess we'll just be upset if we have the expectation that things that are important to us are going to be easy to achieve. What do you think?

[00:05:41] Marie: I, I think there is a myth of that and I think, there might also be, and this isn't, people probably won't like this, but not everyone's really good at what they love. And some people are better at that. And when it comes to careers and work, loving it, and your best... it, it's a hundred percent your best, but it still might not be good enough.

Yeah. Like you might run five Ks at your absolute best and you've worked really, really hard and still be slow still not, and still not win the race.

[00:06:12] Bronwyn: And that sucks.

[00:06:13] Marie: Yeah. And that's the reality. Like, so your best might it, it's not that you are not good enough. But it might not be good enough for a chosen career. I could run five Ks at my best. I'm not gonna be an athlete.

[00:06:26] Bronwyn: No.

[00:06:27] Marie: And I could keep working at it, working at it, but it's not going to compare to someone who's maybe doing it longer. Who maybe doesn't have the injuries I have. And who, uh, maybe has a different body composition that is more leaning towards a five kilometer run, for example. Or, uh, you know, basketball. I am a couple of meters too short to do that. Well, I could learn it, I could have fun in it, and I could try my absolute best. And I'm not gonna make a career outta that.

[00:06:52] Bronwyn: Yeah. And that can be really disappointing to realize, I was laughing before, not at you, but at me because I have a body that's just not suited, compositionally to running, and it's like, I really enjoy running, but I'm never going to be a really good runner. I'm not gonna actually be able to run five minute kilometers. It's just not, I just feel like it's not physiologically possible for me, but I'm still gonna enjoy running.

[00:07:11] Marie: So if we have this myth that it's our passion. It... then maybe because it's our passion, it should, all these other things should align. I reckon that can really lead us to disappointment.

[00:07:22] Bronwyn: That's the thing with mental health work, it's like we're helping others so we can get into this belief and get stuck in it that helping others should automatically make work fulfilling. Why aren't I fulfilled in this line of work because I'm helping other people, I should feel really satisfied. So I feel that they are compatible beliefs that might get us into strife. So follow your passion and helping others should automatically make work fulfilling and I think we can end up very dissatisfied.

[00:07:49] Marie: Has this happened to you? Like did you have, um, an idea or a dream about what a job or career might look like?

[00:07:57] Bronwyn: Yeah, I mean, so one thing that stood out for me as you were talking was music. So I grew up playing saxophone and I loved music because it was really challenging. It's really fun, it's very creative, and I was a huge band nerd. I was literally band captain at school. I went on band camps. Yeah, I was it. And I loved playing music. I loved being in bands.

And then, so when I went to uni, I studied music for a bit, and then I tried to get into this jazz stream to play saxophone, and I failed to get into the jazz stream, I think, two or three times. And I remember feeling so disappointed. I was so upset in myself. I was, I considered myself a real failure.

When I look back on it now, there were some things about me, some characteristics that made me, I was a good musician and I would say I was above average, but I wasn't excellent and. The reason why I wasn't excellent was because I had some negative attitudes holding me back. I was too perfectionistic. And for a jazz musician, you both simultaneously have to be excellent at your craft, but also allow creativity in. And I wasn't doing that and I didn't have the capacity to do that, like other musicians who were excellent.

[00:09:12] Marie: Another thing is that I have a poor working memory, so I'm really good at sight reading music, but retaining music is very hard for me, and I had to work really hard on that. Again, I just wasn't excellent at it. And I think to get into these music courses you needed to be excellent. And so that was a dream for me that fell away. And I still love music. I still play music, but it was never going to be professional for me.

I was gonna talk about this at the end, but there is a book that I've read called The One Thing. Have you read that? And it talks about how you can create a successful career by focusing on one thing. So let's say music was your one thing... that might mean something that's slightly tangential, but related to music. So it could be, um, you know, making the instruments. It could be in, um, stage and setup. It could be in being ticket sales or event management.

[00:10:05] Marie: Like this is where the follow your passion bit can actually have some value. If you zoom out and think, I love anything to do with... it could be jazz, you might be a radio host, a dj, um, you might be, you know, playing music in therapy like... so you can actually bring in a passion and find something around it. That is the job.

[00:10:29] Bronwyn: Absolutely. And that's what I've done. So I find it really enjoyable to connect with musicians. And when I've had clients who are musicians, I find it very easy to connect and I understand music when they talk about it. And then I just do it for personal satisfaction. So I play classical guitar now and I also sing in a choir. And one of the best things about music for me is community. And so I just found that in other areas of my life.

Um, so it's like, what was the disappointment? And it was hugely disappointing when I didn't get into music school. I think I was about 19 years old. And I think just at that age, it's just really crushing to be, to realize like, oh, I'm not actually good at this. Like to the standard that needs to be applied. Um, but it's, it's been fine.

[00:11:10] Marie: It makes me think of, and maybe it's a very Hollywood thing of if you want it bad enough, it'll happen.

[00:11:15] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:11:16] Marie: And think about anything that competitive, you might have been the best in your school.

[00:11:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, I was.

[00:11:22] Marie: And then you go to uni and you're with the thousands of other people that were the best in their school. And then that uni has another uni that's its competitor that has the best, and then there's other states and other countries. Exactly. So it's actually really, really hard.

[00:11:37] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a, have you had a similar experience or something in your life where you followed your passion and it's just like, well, that didn't work out.

[00:11:45] Marie: Not that, um, different to what I'm doing now, but I did kind of have this dream of, I think when I was studying, I thought our work would be valued more and I had these big dreams of like inter- international travel and community development and being able to work with agencies and provide different, you know, whether it be food security or housing security or now mental health. And then realizing like esp- especially, and I started criminology alongside psychology in my undergrad. So I was like, well, these theories make sense. How do people not know this once they know they're gonna want to fix it?

[00:12:21] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:12:21] Marie: And so my disillusion, yeah, my disillusionment came from other people not giving a crap. Or seeing um, that sort of fatigue that comes from people in the industry. You know, my first placement was in child protection and people were so burnt down. I'm like, how are we still this system still going and going? So that was more disheartening. It's like we had these, um, dreams and hopes of, I know this stuff. This makes sense. There's research backing it. Surely people once they know will fund this or implement this and it didn't change. And so that bit was really sad. I think there was that disillusionment.

[00:13:00] Bronwyn: I still find that sad. Yeah. Do you still find that sad? I still feel upset by it. Like every time the budget comes out and mental health is once again under invested and social services are under invested, I still feel quite upset.

[00:13:11] Marie: Me too. And um, more so when I hear discourse at the moment around different political, um, things happening across the world of like, well, it's not on us to fix that. And then it brings this whole other thing of... we've all benefited from all these different things. We've all, you know, shared human race. And I'm like, what if we zoomed out and we are sitting on the International Space Station and we're looking at this little blue dot? Are we gonna see things differently? Are we gonna realize we have more in common than apart? Are we gonna then be thinking, you know, like how would that shape our difference if we zoomed really far out and looked at what really matters?

So from that, that was kind of disheartening is the status and, and even having, um, a Master's degree. And then, you know, I think my first job was $37,000 full time and I'm like, really? Like that was soul crushing working for that kind of money and still feeling ill-equipped in the job.

Um, so some of that I think was hard. I never thought of leaving the sector, but I have moved kind of crossways to try and find something that feels... it sat with maybe the area of intervention I wanted.

[00:14:23] Bronwyn: Was the dissatisfaction coming from the lowered paid than what you hope? Or were there other areas of dissatisfaction or was that the main thing?

[00:14:31] Marie: There was the, the lower pay 'cause that is significantly, that is really low. And when we look, um, that article did have a bit of a graph around happiness increasing steadily till around that maybe $50,000 mark. And then the increase isn't as high.

And so that was, that was still really low. And I was like, I have two degrees and I've got a HECS debt that is so much bigger than that. How do I pay rent and a car and, you know, all of these things and then work in a job where my skills and expertise weren't valued, weren't nurtured.

And then there's a kind of a feminist perspective that I think I... while I agree, money's not the only thing. There are certain sectors that that is taken advantage of.

[00:15:19] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:15:20] Marie: I think that's crap. Like, and I, I think of even maybe our trades and how maybe a beautician or a hairdresser might get paid to a carpenter electrician and the gender difference in that, or how someone who's maybe building a road or a bridge gets paid differently to someone who's nurturing young adult young minds and, and children. And so there is, that's the bit that really grates me the wrong way, is that.

And I didn't like having to keep finding work and and balancing this, oh, but it's a really nice organization. I really love what they value. And then on the other side thinking, and I still have to work my casual job 'cause this doesn't earn me enough money.

[00:16:02] Bronwyn: Exactly, so you weren't fully satisfied. And I mean, just to validate that, I'm just looking at the graph from the article now and it says that if you have a household income of $90,000, if you overlap that with life satisfaction, it really doesn't improve. Life satisfaction doesn't really get measurably better if you earn over $90,000, but below $90,000, there's a drop, a significant drop in your graph in terms of life satisfaction and how, how good you feel.

[00:16:29] Marie: This is, US dollars.

[00:16:31] Bronwyn: US dollars. Yeah.

[00:16:33] Marie: So that might be slightly different, I think, for us.

[00:16:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. But like, but there's a certain amount. The takeaway is that there's a certain amount that we generally need to feel satisfied, and then below that we can feel dissatisfied financially vulnerable in our work lives if we're not earning at capacity.

[00:16:50] Marie: Because I think in the article it does talk about, and we'll put a, a link to that, obviously for people to read that there is something around fair pay. So it's not, while salary isn't everything, it's earning enough and reduce financial stress. But then I, I would actually think it's. What, what's fair around you as well.

[00:17:09] Bronwyn: Exactly. Yeah. So not having any major negatives, like long hours or unfair pay was a key component of their model. So this 80,000 hours model, they say that there are six key ingredients for job satisfaction. Did we wanna move on to that or did you have something else that you wanted to cover first? 

[00:17:24] Marie: There was one bit that really stood out to me and I took the note of like. And humans we're so interesting, aren't we? But there's this one quote of like, we're not always good at predicting what will make us happy. And we don't even realize how bad we are at that.

We don't often have as much insight in ourselves as we might think. And I definitely see this with friends and family and other people where I might be like, you seem most happy when X, Y, Z is happening. They're like. Really? I'm like, well, yeah, you're notably different. And they had no idea 'cause they might see in the, in the articles talking about like, if you miss your flight home from a trip, you might think the whole trip was shit.

And so you might kind of have had like one thing happen and that person's like, oh no, that, that was awful. It's like, no, but you were actually different. You looked different, you looked happier. You talked about this fondly when X, Y, Z was happening. Yeah. And so sometimes we're not the greatest, um, historians of our own lives.

[00:18:13] Bronwyn: Absolutely not. And you know what? I'm actually really fascinated with this effect. I actually know it quite well because I talk about it with clients sometimes who are having difficulty making life decisions and they're trying to make these life decisions based on how they will feel in the future.

And then I have to be the kill joy and be like, actually, humans a really bad at predicting how we feel in the future. Because Paul Gilbert, who's referenced in this article, he did a really cool experiment where he gave a bunch of undergrad students the opportunity to take home a portrait, and he let them choose the portrait out of like five portraits to take home and then what he did was he allowed some of them to take home the portrait, but then he took away the portrait from them, so he took it back, and then he measured how satisfied and how happy they were and how let down they were over time.

And he found that the students who were allowed to keep their paintings, who thought that they were the ones that, these were the best paintings that they wanted, they weren't actually as satisfied as they thought they were over six months with their painting because they had to choose between, and they were like, oh, maybe that painting would've been different. They, so the point is, is that they weren't as satisfied as they thought they were. They couldn't predict how satisfied they would be. The ones who had to give their paintings back, they were actually more satisfied than the ones who got to keep it. 'cause they were like, you know what? I act, I actually didn't want these random paintings. Like, thanks for the offer, but I didn't need them in my life.

So yeah, conclusion is like, it's called affective forecasting, like emotion forecasting. We're bad at it.

[00:19:43] Marie: It's really interesting and that was making me think of this idea that sometimes we pursue happiness by trying to change our environment. And so we think we'll be happier if we change jobs or we'll be a different person if we move overseas or move, say, and that's such a temporary change because we don't change that much like the grumpy, sad, miserable, uncooperative, you will still be that in another context.

Now, this is not when things are unsafe. That's very different when you're kind of escaping an unsafe environment. But if you are the kind of person who doesn't put in a lot of effort or is feels really sensitive to criticism, that's likely to go with you into the next job if it's not a unique kind of trait of that, maybe boss, but it's likely that if we just keep changing the environment, it's not gonna actually make us any happier.

[00:20:37] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:20:37] Marie: And so I was thinking about this job change and kind of moving around of like what we think will make us happier. Like if I just change fresh start, um, you know, relationships or break up, start again. Grass is always green... I was like, no, the grass is greener where you water it.

And so yes, some people will have a improvement in happiness, but I think sometimes that's temporary and they might find that they have the same issues around, I want more structure or my manager's shit, or why do I keep finding all these incompetent people, or I keep having these interpersonal difficulties or like, that doesn't necessarily change just because the environment's changed. I mean, it's not that simple. But that's sort of what I was thinking as well as you were saying that.

[00:21:17] Bronwyn: It's a really good point. There are some individual factors and there are a lot of clients who come to see us for this very reason, and I've had this conversation with people where it's like if you're having this same interpersonal difficulty, I take your example of like, there just seems to be incompetent people wherever I go. Um, that could be true. It could be factual or it could be something within you that you are perceiving that everybody is incompetent, and then feeling that frustration. If that's an individual factor you're gonna have that wherever you go.

[00:21:43] Marie: Yeah. So your, your happiness won't increase if you just keep saying, I just need to find the job that has less incompetent people. Yeah, it actually will come from you.

[00:21:51] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. It's a really good point and I think a very salient one because yeah, I do find that a lot of people have those same troubles, and so it is important to look at yourself as well.

[00:22:02] Marie: Absolutely. So while that's not one of the key factors of job satisfaction...

Six key factors to aim for in a dream job

[00:22:06] Bronwyn: Let's have a look look at these key factors. I'm gonna, I'm gonna name them all and then we can go through them. So these are the six key ingredients that we should aim for in a air quotation dream job.

So we've got number one work that's engaging. Number two, work that helps others. Number three, work that your good at. Number four, work with supportive colleagues. Number five, work that doesn't have major negatives. And number six, work that fits in with the rest of your life.

So let's start at number one, work that is engaging. So 80,000 hours says that what really matters is not your salary, status, type of company and so on, but rather what you do day by day and hour by hour. So you want work that draws you in, holds your attention, gives you a sense of flow. So for you that might be doing a spreadsheet. Spreadsheets might be that engagement, that flow, for other people. It is pure hell and they do not like that at all.

[00:23:02] Marie: Why did you look at me the spreadsheet?

[00:23:05] Bronwyn: It's a good question. don't know.

[00:23:06] Marie: Your spreadsheet spreadsheet was very pretty.

[00:23:08] Bronwyn: Thank you. Um, I do like a good spreadsheet, I have to say.

[00:23:13] Marie: Me too. I, I actually just stir people up. Actually quite, yeah, like a good spreadsheet too.

[00:23:17] Bronwyn: it's very satisfying. Well, well let's talk about like, do do you find your work engaging?

[00:23:24] Marie: Absolutely. And the bits that are, I hate the most. When I think of this is the bits that aren't engaging. So admin, right? Um, unless I'm doing a project where I can kind of deep dive into something. And I've been fortunate that I've been able to, throughout my career, actually curate different, I've worked a lot of jobs part-time, so I've usually had two jobs part-time, so that engagement comes, but I'm a learner.

[00:23:49] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:23:49] Marie: And so I, if there is PD, if there's reflective practice groups, if there's supervision, if there's a book I can read, a conference I can go to, that keeps me engaged. So learning keeps me engaged and good mentoring and good, um, opportunities for growth.

It didn't, wasn't out of career progression and it wasn't out of wanting to hit a certain like ambition. I, that's my flow. That was, you know, I was, that I'd love to print out the journal article and discuss it in a reflective practice group. Like that learning that got me in the flow. Um, so I've always taken on any extra, um, whether there'd be like a practice group or a working party or a... I would take all of those. Give them to me 'cause I, I love doing that.

[00:24:33] Bronwyn: Have you ever done the Values and Action survey?

[00:24:35] Marie: No.

[00:24:36] Bronwyn: Okay, so it's a survey. I give it to people when we're wanting to work out their values and just their personal strengths as well. One of the areas is love of learning and I was going to ask you like, is love of learning your top three?

[00:24:49] Marie: Yeah. When I do the Clifton Strengths.

[00:24:51] Bronwyn: I've heard that.

[00:24:52] Marie: The Gallup, um, the Gallup ones. Yeah. It comes up.

[00:24:54] Bronwyn: Yeah, same. And I think that for me, hearing you talk about that, I'm like, to me that's one of the best things about our industry and about our line of work is that you can keep on learning forever.

[00:25:07] Marie: I think. I think you can in any job.

[00:25:10] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:11] Marie: Like what's a job that you couldn't learn more about? If you loved learning, let's say, right?

[00:25:15] Bronwyn: Okay. If you loved learning. I think you're right.

[00:25:19] Marie: Yeah. 'cause because like even if we think, all right, well mowing the lawns, okay, well you could learn more about different grass type. You could learn more about making lawn resilient for different weather conditions, or drought resilient, or fire resilient, or what conditions they learn to grow in. And the soil quality, you know, if you're working with any machinery, you can learn about improvements, customizing, tweaking,

[00:25:38] Bronwyn: If you've got the curiosity, the learning can be endless.

[00:25:41] Marie: Yeah, so this is where once you know what's important to you, you can make it engaging.

[00:25:46] Bronwyn: Yes. Um, I think an important aspect of this ingredient that is outlined in the article is it asks the question, so why are computer games engaging but office admin isn't? And researchers have identified four factors.

First is the freedom to decide how you perform your work. And I think in private practice this, this freedom is very evident and you get to decide how you do your work. The other thing is clear tasks with a clearly defined start and end. And I, again, I think in private practice you've got a therapy session, there's a start and end. I think the unpaid staff can be less engaging because there's not a clear start and end. Variety in the types of tasks. I think we've got those and feedback so you know how well you're doing. This is one that I think our industry falls a bit flat on. I would love more feedback and I think it's because there's not a culture of videotaping and observation. What do you think?

[00:26:39] Marie: I think you're very, I think this actually is what makes it hard in private practice, because while we have freedom to decide how to perform our work, the rest aren't there.

[00:26:48] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:26:49] Marie: If there's nobody over you to say your notes need to be done by this time, it's not time bound. There's no deadline, um, there's no maybe consequence. I can see how that can pile up.

[00:26:59] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:27:00] Marie: And so I think this is part of people in that space needing to figure out how to do this well. And for managers, I think people often under communicate. We all think we're communicating a lot more than we do and we under communicate. And so some people are left with not enough guideline around when's that due, how you know, what's a priority when you want it done. And so we don't know how to manage our time very well. And so I can say that this is going- the feedback, the only feedback I can really look at is the numbers. I can look at how many sessions have been booked in I can, so it is hard to get feedback around the quality of the work.

[00:27:39] Bronwyn: I wish I had more feedback about the quality. I always think it's like if I was practicing diving, if I'm, if I'm playing music, I get feedback straight away from teachers and that really helps me. I really thrive on feedback. I love feedback and I think that's something that's actually been really dissatisfying for me, um, because it affects growth and 'cause I love learning and I love growth. It's like, right, it's just [failure sounds].

[00:28:02] Marie: Yeah. So listeners, please provide us with some feedback about our podcast because we would love that and we wanna improve and we wanna have your questions on here.

I've been doing, uh, the Gottman certification track, and so I've been recording a lot of my sessions and going through, I've been rewatching them in preparation for supervision. So some is to see if I hit fidelity like with most, um, models. But then some, it's also... this is where I get stuck. Let's watch it together. And so having that feedback, it kind of ticks a few things for me. I do get into the flow. I do have something I'm working towards and I get that feedback from my supervisor. And then if the couple stays with me long enough, we get to do a pre and post assessment, um, using the Gottman relationship checkup and see change. And so that is really great. So maybe session rating scales or um, other kind of feedback measures are something people can do, but if you are not in private practice, how else can you get feedback? So as you're listening to this thinking about, well, if these components are what I need, what can I customize in my workspace?

[00:29:06] Bronwyn: Exactly.

Let's move on to the second ingredient then, because your work could be very engaging, but if you don't have the other ingredients, then you may not be satisfied. Ingredient number two is work that helps others. So there's a growing body of evidence which shows that helping others is a key ingredient for work and life satisfaction. People who volunteer are less depressed and healthier. And then they cite a meta-analysis, which showed that performing acts of kindness makes the giver happier.

Yeah, so I guess like intuitively with mental health work, we feel like it's helping other people. So this is, I feel like this is pretty much like, yep, tick.

[00:29:42] Marie: I don't, I don't agree.

[00:29:43] Bronwyn: Okay, share.

[00:29:45] Marie: Um, I'm thinking of the book, Lost Connections. And there was a story in there of a teacher who, again, giving profession But was so weighed down by all these other things that it wasn't until she started running a study group outside of those teaching hours that that boosted her wellbeing. So it didn't come from giving in the primary job.

[00:30:06] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:30:06] Marie: Because that was, had these other things and maybe it's the non-supportive work conditions. But that giving came from an external place. So I'm thinking organizations where you might do, um, big brother, big sister, or mentoring or with your alumni from your university, like you can give outside of your job, because that might be a different level of fulfillment. So I don't think just because our jobs are in the helping profession, it necessarily ticks this box.

[00:30:35] Bronwyn: Yeah, and even now as you're talking about it, I'm like, I'm just thinking of another point in my head, which is that sometimes we don't get to see the outcomes of our work. So by that I mean we may see a client and then have a session, then we're like, I'm not sure if that really helped them. They might have gone away and been like, that was the best thing ever. And I'm making several changes in my life, but they don't come back to us and share that with us. So we don't know. So sometimes we don't actually know if we're helping people. We're just like, trusting in the process.

[00:31:00] Marie: Yeah. But you can put other things in place. Like we've done food drives at our work. Um, I've looked at doing a collection point for like the end period poverty. So there are other ways you can give. Even within a giving job. But I don't, I don't necessarily think that just because we all work in these jobs that are very human focused, that it ticks this entire, this box, the fulfillment of this box.

[00:31:23] Bronwyn: And it can lead to a bit of disillusionment because I think most people would assume, I'm going into a helping profession. I'm gonna help people. I'm gonna see the outcomes of that. But sometimes we work with people where it's very difficult to see change and that can take years or not at all.

[00:31:37] Marie: Yeah. And there's a lot of, um, vicarious trauma. Um, projection. Um, especially if you're working at the pointy end where it's a revolving door of, of um, kind of pointy end critical cases. That giving might come from somewhere else.

[00:31:51] Bronwyn: Yeah, it, it seems like it's very important, like, as the guide says, it's not only for work satisfaction, but it's for life satisfaction to feel like you're helping others. So, like you say, having other domains of your life where you can help other people, it just does seem very important for mental health and wellbeing.

[00:32:07] Marie: It does. There's been, um, there's some research I think Monash is doing, some Monash and Deakin are doing some on, um, altruism and volunteering, improving mental health outcomes for young people and they're some research at that at the moment and showing how volun volunteering has been shown to improve mental health. So, yes.

[00:32:24] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:32:24] Marie: Which, I mean, you're listening to it, people think, fuck, I have to volunteer on top of everything else, but it doesn't have to be that intense. It can be, you know, have a student on placement. It can be mentoring. Um, I do some mentoring through my alumni association every now and again, and I've registered with the ASW so you can do, you can find it in your capacity.

I mean, this, this is kind of voluntary. Yeah. Um, and then there's the Mental health professionals network, like, so you can. Find something, but having work that helps others, um, is yeah, seems to be a factor that moves through different domains. So this one's around work satisfaction, but in, in, um, Lost Connections, Johann Hari talks about sort of preventing depression and the different components, and that's kind of one of them.

[00:33:08] Bronwyn: Yeah, I love that book. He's such a prolific writer. I love all of his books. Yeah.

[00:33:12] Marie: Very good.

[00:33:13] Bronwyn: Let's move on to the next one. The next one is work that you are good at. So being good at your work, it gives you a sense of achievement and it's a key ingredient of work satisfaction. So do you feel like good at your work?

[00:33:28] Marie: I hope so, because I've chosen bits that I naturally found I was interested in. And then became better at. And so I think you don't have one can lead to the other. You can have an interest in something and keep working at it to get better. Or you can just do something and think, oh, if I just keep doing this, I become good at it, and then you enjoy it because you're competent good at. So I think it can be a bit of both. I'm not good at all areas of it, and that's okay.

[00:33:58] Bronwyn: We have strengths. Yeah. So, I'm thinking like at the start of my career, I felt like I wasn't very good at it at all. I was really bumbling through. I remember starting out working with clients and I was like, great, I've done my assessment session. What do I do next? Like, how do I do therapy? Um, and that was really hard for me, but I've become better at it. And you know, doing my schema certification really helped my confidence in my skills at work because we got that feedback. And for schema certification, you have to get an external supervisor, so not even your regular supervisor, outside of that supervisor to rate and view your video. And I felt quite good when I exceeded the expectations for the schema certification. And it was a number rating and it was like you only needed fours, and I got like fives and sixes and I was like, F yeah, I can do something.

So I'm not good at everything, but I feel like I can do good at the things that I wanna do good at, and that's satisfying to me.

[00:34:59] Marie: Great. Alright. So do work you're good at.

[00:35:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, and, but I think you're right, Marie. Like you can become better at it. And I think a lot of early career mental health professionals, they can feel very dissatisfied because it is hard at the start to learn everything. It's, I think it's quite a steep learning curve, and it just feels like everything's being chucked at you at once.

But I think you can feel more satisfied by focusing on a specific thing and applying that deliberate practice framework and being like, this week I'm going to focus on starting the session well. Next week I'm gonna focus on ending the session. Well, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:35:31] Marie: So folks dunno what that is, um, Google the taxonomy of deliberate practice and there's a really good spread kind of.

[00:35:37] Bronwyn: Framework?

[00:35:38] Marie: How to kind of do that for supervision. Really good stuff there and some good videos on YouTube, um, about the person who created that.

[00:35:44] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:35:45] Marie: But this doesn't mean you have to be good at all parts of it. I think we underestimate the importance of, and I hate calling them soft skills, but things around um, punctuality, communication, collaboration, you know, integrity. Like you can be really good at all of those things while you're learning some of the others.

[00:36:05] Bronwyn: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:06] Marie: You can be, maybe organized. You can be easy to work with. You can, um, be eager to learn. can, you can maybe focus on some systems or processes. There might be things that you can bring that are... you are already kind of good at, because .To get to that point, you would've done a lot of study and you've picked up skills along the way. That could be in video editing. It could be in proofreading. could be, maybe you have a social media thing on the side that you document stuff, like there might be other bits you can bring into a workplace that can cushion that a little bit.

[00:36:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, and if you need help identifying what you're skilled at, I would recommend getting in touch with a trusted friend, family member, or supervisor who can give you that feedback. Sometimes it's really hard to identify our own skills.

[00:36:49] Marie: Especially when it, it either comes naturally to you or you've been doing it so long, you think everybody else knows how to do this.

[00:36:54] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. Totally.

[00:36:56] Marie: All right. The fourth one?

[00:36:57] Bronwyn: Is work with supportive colleagues. So obviously if you hate your colleagues and you have a boss from hell, you're not going to be satisfied. So, what's your comment on this, Marie?

[00:37:08] Marie: Totally makes sense. People are kind of a big part of what we do, and you don't have to be BFF's, but getting along, feeling connected, I think makes a really big difference. Some of the best jobs I've had, the work was the same as any other organization, but the most memorable I've had where there's been good team culture or a little, uh, routine or ritual.

[00:37:29] Bronwyn: Same for me. I rate this one quite highly in terms of work satisfaction. Like you, I've had, uh, average work, like the tasks have been pretty average, but I've had really supportive colleagues and I've gotten along with them, and for me, that's really important.

So the research says that probably the most important factor is whether you can get help from your colleagues when you run into problems, so you're not alone. And for me, that's been super important because I usually have a lot of questions about everything that I do, and I can work it out a lot of the time by myself. But sometimes there are just questions around like, I don't know what to do and I need your help. And whether or not a colleague is there to support me is very important.

What about you?

[00:38:07] Marie: Yeah, I'm, I'd be the same. I mean now in private practice it's a little bit different and probably that's probably the piece that's missing. So I've had to get that through peer supervision groups and from other areas to still have what colleagues looks like when you are the director. Is very different. Um, so there's that.

But in the past it's very much been around... Maybe an open door policy or kind of being seen. And probably I might have even loved a little bit more nurturing and, um, see my enthusiasm as something that could be an asset rather than squished. I feel like sometimes I've been squished, like a bug that's just been like, you're annoying, just like swatted away.

[00:38:47] Bronwyn: Oh, that's so disappointing. Have you seen Brooklyn Nine Nine?

[00:38:50] Marie: Yeah.

[00:38:50] Bronwyn: You're like the Amy.

[00:38:51] Marie: Less less enthusiastic about stationary, but yeah, some, some con-

[00:38:56] Bronwyn: You don't have as many binders.

[00:38:57] Marie: No.

[00:38:59] Bronwyn: I remember there was an episode where it was when Amy became sergeant and then another employee was like the Amy to her, and she was like, he's so annoying. And then it was like, no, you need to nurture that rather than squish it out. Yeah. Okay. So that's important to you. It's good to recognize that. Yeah. Okay.

Next round number five is work that doesn't have major negatives. So to be satisfied, everything else we've talked about is important, but you also need to have the absence of things that make work unpleasant and all of the following, which I'm about to say are linked to job dissatisfaction.

So a long commute, especially if it's over an hour by bus or other public transport. Very long hours, pay you feel is unfair, and job insecurity. So even though these things sound really obvious, people overlook them. And the negative consequences of a long, for example, can be enough to outweigh many other positive factors. And I know this is relevant for a lot of folks in our industry who have NDIS clients and they're often traveling long hours. I was doing that myself when I was seeing NDIS clients. It wasn't over an hour, but I remember it was kind of draining.

[00:40:04] Marie: Yeah. One of my jobs, um, was about an just on, it was an hour door to door outbound, and then from there I would do outreach work. So on the day where I had to go to, so it was Melbourne to Geelong and then Geelong to Colac, that was another hour away. On that day was four hours of driving, and that pushed it over the edge with, the, just the one hour each day was get probably just on the cusp of because everything else. Was fine about this job. Had that gone to an hour-ten, -fifteen, or there was traffic, I think that would've probably meant I wouldn't have lasted, but for that straight run against traffic... yeah, I can kind of see that. And then public transport, if there's inconsistencies and reliability And you have to be at work for a particular appointment time. I think that would be huge difficulty.

[00:40:53] Bronwyn: Yeah. One thing I'm noticing about these is that these are very external, I guess, uh, sys- systemic factors, and they're not individual factors. So what do you, what would your advice be for somebody who has like a long commute and it's just not changeable in their current job?

[00:41:08] Marie: Maybe noticing that, that like, if you're going through this and, and read the article and kind of put, if it's ticking maybe five out of those six and this is your one. Then looking at, well, what do I have control over? Can I, if I ride share, will that mean I get some connection? If I listen to an audio book, does that hit some of the learning? Can I check emails on the train and then count that as some of my work time? Is there someone's house I can stay at one night a week? So that, while that's annoying 'cause I have to pack a bag, it reduces my commute.

Like we never not have any choices. And so you can think about that. Or maybe that's a decision you've made for the short term, and you are okay to know that and you're thinking this is a stepping stone. Maybe I'm on a rotation or I'm doing, you know, placement. Like I think some jobs you get put on a rotation for six months and you've got no choice. So if you think about, this is part of what I'm going to be working towards, maybe that's enough to make that bearable. 

My biggest, and this probably, I dunno why my brain jumped here, but I'm just picturing coming home from a long commute and then eating, then eating crappy food you're tired. And then thinking, I'm so pooped, I, I don't wanna exercise, I'm just gonna watch tv. And then I don't wanna go to bed yet 'cause I only just got home. And so then we're not prioritizing sleep, which will make things worse. We're not adding in any exercise, which will make things worse. And we're eating food that might not be good for us, our energy.

And so that then piles on day after day after day, which in itself can create mental distress, poor mental health, poor physical health. And so being aware of these things that when you have less, that might be when you need to do a little bit more of the right things. And how do you not put your head in the sand and think maybe on a Sunday you meal prep? And know that yes, you would prefer to be at the pub, but if you spend those couple of hours, your week will be easier. If instead of doom scrolling, you did a 20 minute walk, that's going to help you sleep better. And so maybe prioritizing that hygiene, a sleep hygiene, that physical health, that wellbeing, because then you give all that up. You hate the job more, 'cause you resent it.

[00:43:30] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:43:31] Marie: So there are things you still can control.

[00:43:33] Bronwyn: That's very true. You have such a, a reasonable, rational way of looking at things, Marie.

[00:43:38] Marie: Thank you.

[00:43:39] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:43:40] Marie: So you're gonna help me meal prep tomorrow the week?

[00:43:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, sure. I guess so. You presented such a balanced way. I can't really say no.

Um, so number six, this is work that fits with the rest of your life. So this ingredient is emphasizing that you don't have to have all the ingredients of a fulfilling life from your job. They give the example of Einstein who had his most productive year in 1905 while working as a clerk at a patent office. So you can get your sense of meaning outside of work, or you can find engagement outside of work, and work can just be work.

[00:44:15] Marie: I've had that in the past where I've had jobs that, that get me by while I'm studying and studying was a thing. And then I think of clients that I work with, and we talk about this a lot. So I do the, um, ACT bullseye activity, and spend a bit of time sort of looking at what are the different things in your life that are important and how can we build those up.

So often I think we're, when we're looking at mental ill health, or poor mental health, we are looking at what we need to. Kind of take away, like let's reduce this, reduce that. But we often maybe don't think about what we can add. And so sometimes I think about, well, can you add in, a regular pickleball game, is that gonna help you with social connection? Can you add some sort of mentoring or volunteering? It doesn't have to be through a structured organization. It could be somewhere else. Can you spend more time with nieces, nephews, children, like actually thinking about what are the things around you that are important and building this kind of ecosystem of things, because I actually think it's really dangerous to have all of that be just in work.

[00:45:18] Bronwyn: I agree. I think because if work goes away, then you'd just be in a crisis. You'd be like, who am I? What am I doing? What is my life?

[00:45:27] Marie: Yeah. And I've seen these happen. It's not always gendered, but it seems to be, um, more heavy when men who post sort of children like that empty nest thing or close to retirement, then there's a real gap of if those things haven't been nurtured, if there's no long term like friendships, the active parenting has changed and work is reducing or redundant, then it's who am I? I've given, I've given my whole life in service of this thing. Now what?

[00:46:00] Bronwyn: Mm, yeah, totally. I will say that for mental health workers, I reckon, this comes down to strict boundaries, in my opinion. Like, you can't be like, I'm just gonna keep on working, or I'll just do a few hours here and there. I think it does need to have strict boundaries, at least for me. I think maybe I'm just speaking of myself. I think for me to make it work, I have to be like, I'm finishing work at four and then I'm doing this, and then I'm gonna hang out with a friend there. Otherwise, I feel like it does creep in for me because I love learning so much, and I'll be like, I'll just learn here and I'll just do that, and I make all these compromises, and then pretty soon 24/7, I'm working.

[00:46:39] Marie: Me too, and it's quite funny 'cause I'm quite an extrovert, so I love hanging out with people and sometimes I'm like, will everyone just leave me alone so I can spend. All night on my laptop, like I just wanna edit podcast episodes and do some planning and write my blog post and do some research. And there's all these online on-demand things I wanna watch. I wanna clean up my Asana board and will everyone just leave me alone so I can sit there with a big pot of tea and just work.

And then I think. What the hell? So I flipped it, I've found I'm trialing this year booking things in to make me more accountable. So I've got a sewing class coming up. I've got a painting class at the end of the year. Um, on the weekends I usually go to the gym or to go, like, so I've, instead of trying to just reduce work, I actually felt like I needed to book in the thing I wanted to do and then rearrange the time around it.

I've seen some productivity content talking about time blocking. And so there's one strategy of picture, what your ideal week would you would love it to look like, and then work backwards from there. So would you like, if you're like, oh, I'd love to be able to go for a walk and then go to yoga and do this, just, just entertain that of what that would look like, and then start working backwards of what's one small step. Maybe you can start work one day of the week you could do a 10 till six, so you can go to that morning yoga class. Maybe you can do an eight till four so you can leave early and catch that, whatever, what. Maybe you have a, I've had, um, clients who take a longer lunch break and they run the tan in Melbourne to train for an event and so that they've, you know, they've found other ways to insert some of these things.

[00:48:19] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:48:21] Marie: Have you?

[00:48:21] Bronwyn: Um, yeah, I think the time blocking has worked for me. I find that if I have a commitment, then I make sure that work meets that. So I guess the clearest example I can give is that I do choir on a Monday, seven till nine. So I can't book any clients after six. Um, and ideally I wanna be finished beforehand so I can do notes and finish up for the day. So that forces me to not overwork so I can prioritize this thing that's important to me. And I do that also for Saturdays. Saturdays I go for parkrun and I make sure that I get enough sleep so I can do that. So having these other things that are important to me make sure that I care of myself so I can do them.

[00:49:02] Marie: and how many park runs have you done? Because it's not just something you're just flippantly saying to a parkrun. You've done 300 and..?

[00:49:09] Bronwyn: 389.

[00:49:10] Marie: Woo. Yeah. Probably more by the time this goes to air.

[00:49:13] Bronwyn: Yeah. But yeah, it's, um, I, I think I would be sad if my whole life was work because I love exploration as well and learning different things and yeah, I just think in terms of values, like if you did the Values Bullseye with me, it would be sad to me. So I think that requires everybody looking into themselves about what's meaningful for them because my life and your life won't be what somebody else was meaningful and satisfying.

[00:49:39] Marie: No, it's finding, well, mine is congruent with my values. And I have to sit with the discomfort of there are some things that have to give to get that. And there are some tough decisions and there's a constant towards move. It's constant decision points of I'm choosing to do this.

[00:50:00] Bronwyn: Exactly.

Okay. So those are the six ingredients. Was there any other aspect of having a satisfying work life of following your passion, which you wanted to comment on? I guess like these ingredients really speak to like, yeah, probably if you're just gonna follow your passion, it, it's gonna lead you astray. Anything else you wanted to on?

[00:50:18] Marie: We get people to do the character strengths profile. So the clifton, um, or the Gallup Inventory, whatever it's called.

[00:50:24] Bronwyn: Yeah, we can link to that.

[00:50:25] Marie: Do that. That's awesome. The paid version, I think it's like 80 bucks. It's, really, really worth it. I have looked at that so many times and it's got some really great ways that that strengths show up for you. The interplay between different strengths and it highlights blind spots. And I know for me, learning. Is my greatest strength and biggest blind spot.

[00:50:47] Bronwyn: Ah, interesting. What's it, how is it a blindspot?

[00:50:49] Marie: Because I'm capable of learning so much, I don't outsource things that I could because I'm like, well, but I could learn that. And it's not to micromanage it, it's, I could do that, but I only have so many hours of the week. So I spend time learning how to improve this thing or build this webs, and I've done a lot of that. But that means I'm not doing the things that I need to either move my business forward or to, I could spend three hours just trying to figure out how to use this new plugin on my website instead of going for a run or for a walk.

And so I can get sidetracked learning about things and collecting information that isn't necessarily helpful, and so it can be a real kind of, it can pull away, and it might also mean that sometimes I can either overestimate my competence because I'm like, but I can learn that surely it's fine? And then realize, oh my God, that's a much bigger job.

[00:51:44] Bronwyn: Yeah, I've been there. Yeah.

[00:51:47] Marie: So that's that. And it can intimidate other people. So they can feel like I'm expecting that of them, or I am like, if I'd be like, oh, and I've read that book when, what about this? That could come across as, um, maybe judgy. I think, and it's like, no, I'm just, I'm excited and I I'm, well, I'm listening to audio books. I'm listening to this and this one, and that's just my interest. And so it can be a big blind spot. So I would say do that inventory. It's really cool.

I'm gonna ask you if you work, if you're a manager listening to this, if you're in leadership, what would you like people to kind of take away from this around how they might help themselves and their team?

[00:52:28] Bronwyn: I think for helping yourself, what I would recommend is we're gonna link to the article. I'd say read the article. What I hope people take away from this episode is that it gives them some language around things that they've noticed. So for instance, if they're like, oh, I'm not really feeling satisfied, and then they reflect and they identify that their work is not very engaging, I hope that we can give them that language. It's like, I'm dissatisfied because... I don't feel like I can get into a flow state with my work. I don't feel like I can get feedback from my work. So I think identifying that writing down the things that from this ingredient list are missing or not entirely fulfilled can be really helpful.

And I think for leaders and managers, they can work out, do an inventory of what's happening in their team. Like, are we not having a supportive environment? Are we giving them pizza on Fridays, but that's not, that's kind of a token thing for them. It's not actually a supportive, can we help them in their time of need? So what can we do to enact that to help them have more satisfaction in their role, is what I'd say. Do an audit and then implement some actions based on that, and then get feedback. What about you?

[00:53:36] Marie: I love that. And I think if you're working in an industry that's like ours, um, I would even overt that. So I think people are a bit like, ooh, about change. So I might say, hey folks, I listened to this episode and here is the article if you wanna read it. Great, go nuts. But I've read it and I want to start trying to change how we do things here and create that as an invitation. So especially in our work, I think we need to keep role modeling that authenticity and that vulnerability to be like, I didn't know this before I overlooked it, or this is a great refresher, or it phrase it in a way that is new, and I'm intentionally doing something different. You don't have to just start doing something different and freak people out and like starting meeting with them, being like, have you hit your flow state yet? They won't know. So I would be role modelling that.

[00:54:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that's a great idea and that's what I recommend people do in therapy. Even like if they're learning new techniques, like they can say. I've been reflecting and in our time between our last session, I realized this and I wondered how, what you think of that and how that sits with you. Um, so I think that's a great way to do it, rather than pretending that we are the all-knowing gurus. It's like we're constantly growing and reflecting ourselves.

[00:54:45] Marie: We, are we're absolutely.

[00:54:46] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:54:47] Marie: I think we should leave it there.

[00:54:48] Bronwyn: Let's leave it there.

Well, listeners, that's a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to Mental Work. It's been a great collab between me, Bronwyn Milkins and Marie Vakakis. Make sure that you put this into somebody else's ears so that they can enjoy the episode too. Hope you have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.