Family mediation and managing overthinking early in your career (with Rosemary Gattuso)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for mental health workers with an early career focus. I am your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we'll explore the role of a mediator in the family court, how mental health professionals can manage their own overthinking, and a strength-based tool for self-reflection that can really transform the way we approach our work. Here to help us out is our guest, Rosemary Gattuso. Hi Rosemary.

[00:00:30] Rosemary: Hi, Bronwyn. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:34] Bronwyn: It's so nice to have you here on the podcast. I'm so glad that we could have you on. Rosemary, could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non-work passion is?

[00:00:42] Rosemary: You've already mentioned I am a mediator for the family court, but that doesn't necessarily define who I am and, and outside of my work, I do enjoy getting outdoors and walking, walking anywhere I can, whether or not it's in a park or, even just in the city or in my local area. And just exploring. I find that, it helps me to sort of tune out and, and relax and see the world through a different lens.

[00:01:12] Bronwyn: Yeah. I love how you said exploring because that's what I love about walking as well. It's like finding new places, seeing different things. I'm curious, are you one of these people who don't listen to anything when you walk or do you listen to something.

[00:01:24] Rosemary: So sometimes I listen to, um, uh, like a walking meditation.

[00:01:29] Bronwyn: Ah, yeah.

[00:01:30] Rosemary: Or audio books or sometimes I just wander and, and see. And actually just last week I realized that there is a yoga studio down the road, like really just close to me. But because I don't always go that way. I didn't realize until now, I'm like, oh, that's a another studio within walking distance, so.

[00:01:49] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's so great. The things that we discover when we're walking and we don't necessarily have an aim in mind. We're just like, I'm gonna go this way.

About family mediation, I know you said that it doesn't necessarily define you as a professional and what you do, but many listeners, myself included, have never met a family mediator. Could you just tell us what a family mediator does and how this line of work, I know you have an interest in overthinking, how that led you to that.

[00:02:15] Rosemary: Well, essentially as a, a family mediator... well, in, in Australia the, the technical term is a family dispute resolution practitioner, and so when, uh, family relationship centers were set up in about 2006, 2007, all over Australia, they were set up as the first call for separating parents or separating families to, to go to, instead of going to court, where they'd see a mediator, who is that independent, you know, neutral third party who really just sits there to help facilitate a conversation.

[00:02:48] Bronwyn: What led you to wanting to get into that? Did you have a career before or was this just something that's always been your passion?

[00:02:55] Rosemary: Well, I always wanted to be a family lawyer, and then once I got there, I realized it wasn't for me. Through that process, I was introduced to mediation as at the time it was called alternative dispute resolution, being alternative to the traditional judicial system, going to court. And I, I felt that the dispute resolution was more aligned with who I am and my characteristics and skillset, whereas the legal, traditional, legal setting, it really highlighted my weaknesses, you know, and and where I needed to improve and what I wasn't good at.

And so, and I guess that's why I felt more aligned with mediation because it just flowed a lot better for me. And so that's how I got into mediation. And then I always had this, um, interest in family. So, uh, I, um, set out to become a family mediator.

[00:03:53] Bronwyn: What are the skills that you feel you are well suited for with family mediation?

[00:03:59] Rosemary: I would say the top two would be that I'm patient and a good listener.

[00:04:03] Bronwyn: Ah, yeah, you would need both of those things.

[00:04:06] Rosemary: And I guess also calm. People often say to me, oh, you're very calm, or I feel less stressed. And I think it's, I guess how I, what, what I bring to the room?

[00:04:19] Bronwyn: Yeah, because I do imagine it's very stressful. Like I guess I have this characterized image of what it might be, and that I guess. Emotions might be running high. People want different things potentially, and I, I'm imagining it does require a certain kind of patience, maybe extra patience.

[00:04:37] Rosemary: Yes. And although I think it helps that I am the third party, like I'm independent. So having that, um, independence for me, um, helps, but it doesn't mean that I'm also not going to feel drawn to one party over another or, um, maybe relate to the situation or even identify that, you know, some, some of the kids, even though I don't meet them, hear about them. They might remind me of kids that I know. So that's still, um, there I guess. But, um, it's almost like having a good poker face.

[00:05:16] Bronwyn: The skills you are describing sound very similar to the skills that we use as mental health professionals as well, but I think the volume is turned up. I just feel like you just need extra of those skills. With developing these skills, I know you said some of them came naturally to you. Did you feel like you had to develop them professionally or through supervision or extra training as well?

[00:05:36] Rosemary: Definitely. And once I studied, once I started working as a family mediator, I felt that I had to study counseling or some kind of, therapy or, or psychology, to help me understand families a little bit better, and also to enhance my skillset. And so that's where I studied couples and family therapy.

[00:05:57] Bronwyn: Uh, wonderful. It sounds like a very rewarding line of work.

[00:06:00] Rosemary: For me it is, yeah. I mean it, you're with the family mediation, you're sitting in other people's conflict every day. In, in some cases it's their, you know, their worst or some of the worst times in, in their life. And, in that sense that can be a little bit heavy, but it can also be, you know, extremely rewarding and because generally things aren't as bad as the way we perceive them in our heads.

And so I might have couples, you know, sitting with me and that might be the first time they've been in the same room or even had a conversation with each other for a long time. And, and the mediation would generally go for three hours. And that's where it is, you know, uh, safe to have everyone in the same room and, and continue.

But even that, I mean, even if it's, just think about, even if you haven't been separated, just think about someone who you have a fight with or you don't like a friend that you had a falling out with, having to sit in a room with them and talk to them... you know, and, and have a mediator sort of structure the conversation so that you each get a turn and you each get to raise the topics that you wanna raise and, and, and, you know, do a bit of troubleshooting and, and reality testing and talk about options. That in itself, uh, can be extremely nerve wracking. And so sometimes just getting through the first 10 minutes and the realization that it's, you know, maybe it's not that bad or maybe for some it is, but even just getting through that, um, can be helpful.

[00:07:37] Bronwyn: Do you ever let people have like a one minute free for all where they can just say, I hate you, and then the other person can say, I hate you too, or is that not generally advised?

[00:07:46] Rosemary: Well, no, if, if they needed to do that, I would send them to, um, post-separation counseling,

[00:07:51] Bronwyn: I see.

[00:07:52] Rosemary: You know, or, or something, or... I mean, there's allowing to vent in a respectful way and also allowing to get, you know, we have what some mediators will call the un marrying ceremony, where you kind of, you allow... exchange to take place where you know that one of the parties still wants to get back together and one of them, and you know, one of the, and the other one definitely doesn't want to.

[00:08:18] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:08:18] Rosemary: So it's kind of, you know, structuring or guiding the conversation in a way where it's clear that it's over. And sometimes that is a challenge. And I, I mean, I am trained as a, a counselor, I have been a counselor., So, um, I'm probably in, in a, a good place to hold that conversation, but that's not the intent of mediation, and, you know, particularly if you're going through a government funded, um, service. They, you know, you've got those hours to get specific work done. I mean, you can go back, but sometimes having those types of conversations, um, can escalate the situation or make things worse where you can't repair it.

So it, it's, it's a constant juggle and that's where my role is also to assess whether or not to go ahead and how to go ahead and that might mean calling a shorter session or calling it off or being in separate rooms, um, or referring clients to counseling and saying, uh, you know, it's probably best if both of you get individual counseling and then come to mediation.

[00:09:25] Bronwyn: I see. So it's, it's quite structured, it's goal focused. You're trying to navigate how to best achieve your desired outcome.

[00:09:33] Rosemary: Yes. And sometimes the outcome isn't getting an agreement but just clearing the air and getting that a, a mutual understanding about how to move forward.

[00:09:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's very interesting. It sounds like it's a constant dance that you're having to, uh, navigate.

[00:09:51] Rosemary: It can be, and, and I guess that the interesting thing is, is that, you know, I'm just thinking back when you introduced me as a family mediator... well, I consider myself a mental health worker. You know, and all the conferences that I go to and professional development that I do is in the realm of mental health and trauma.

So for me, I don't see as much a distinction, you know, between a mediator and counselors or, I mean the study that the knowledge is different and the goals are different, but I think some of the skills and what you're sitting with, um, and exposed to, uh, are quite similar.

[00:10:30] Bronwyn: Yeah, you make a really excellent point. Like you would definitely need to have a trauma informed practice, right?

[00:10:36] Rosemary: Yes, definitely, and I, I do say that I'm a trauma informed mediator.

[00:10:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. And so I think you're right. It's like you're bringing these psychological counseling skills into this setting where you need to achieve an outcome and really consider both parties and be that objective third party, which is all things that we do, is mental health workers.

[00:10:55] Rosemary: So as a mediator and going through mediation, there's a specific, um, purpose and goal to achieve. So there's, you know, room for some of that therapeutic process and holding a space in a trauma informed way, but when the clients perhaps need a little bit more work to help the processing and the grief and loss around the separation and, and even, you know, the past, um, scenarios, that's when, you know, I would refer them to a more long term sort of process or, you know, to another practitioner who can hold them for much longer and, and, you know, sit beside them in their, their own journey rather than be guided by, you know, a specific goal of, of mediation and limitations of working in a, you know, a, a government funded, um, center.

[00:11:48] Bronwyn: That makes a lot of sense. So I'm just wanting to get to overthinking and how this links to that because I know you've written a book centered around overthinking and I wondered how you got into this area.

[00:12:03] Rosemary: Well, essentially the, the book was born from my observations of clients and myself as well as, you know, study in, in child development and trauma on how people manage adversity. You know, because I was faced on a regular basis with people in going through personal crisis, and I was also using a strength-based lens because I was working in an organization that, uh, you know, used a strengths-based in the team and also with clients.

So I saw that in applying the strength-based theory, um, I could articulate the trends that I was seeing. So strength-based theory will classify everything as under... coming under what's wrong or what's wrong. And so I saw that clients who their pers, their focus was mainly on what's wrong. Their ability to navigate and manage adversity was a lot harder, and they had a, a tendency to stay in the past more, which hindered making decisions about the future, which is, you know, really important for family mediation.

Whereas those who had a tendency to stay longer on the lens of what's strong, it doesn't mean they were always on the strength based lens, um, but longer than they looked at what's wrong, they were able to manage their, uh, their challenges and overcome their personal adversity in a much smoother and quicker way, and it was easier for them to make future decisions.

[00:13:36] Bronwyn: That's really interesting. So with overthinking, are you defining overthinking as when you have a negative lens and then you just keep on thinking about all these negative things, or are you thinking about it differently?

[00:13:48] Rosemary: No, that's exactly it. So I would see overthinking as an analysis of a situation that focuses on what's wrong, and whereas reflection is an analysis of a situation that focuses on what's strong.

[00:14:01] Bronwyn: And you mentioned that this might come from a personal experience as well. Is this something that you've struggled with in the past?

[00:14:07] Rosemary: Yeah, definitely. I mean, even as I, I mentioned initially about my career being a family lawyer, and that really highlighted my weaknesses, and it wasn't really until I became a family mediator in a strengths-based environment that really changed my, even my perception of myself and my perception of me in a career as, as a professional, because I was suddenly given evidence of my strengths, and then I believed it myself, and then I was able to see my strengths more.

Whereas previous roles that that I was in, that I had been in, they really focused on... well, the focus was on what I needed to do differently and where my weaknesses were, or that I had to be like someone else. And I mean, essentially I realize now that's just because it wasn't where I needed to be.

[00:15:01] Bronwyn: So I guess like we all face adversity, like, you know, a lot of us have decisions about our careers and where to go. And from what you are describing, it sounds like when you were a lawyer, it was like you were blaming yourself or being told that you were the problem. Whereas you concluded eventually that it was rather, this is not a suitable setting for me and that my strengths can be used better elsewhere.

[00:15:25] Rosemary: So it, you're right, it was once I was able to externalize what was happening and, and see it almost as a witness, then it helped me then find what I was good at and move into that role.

[00:15:40] Bronwyn: And so this is something that you've observed in mediation clients as well? That when they are stuck in this negative frame of thinking, it's much harder for them to move forward in their life.

[00:15:50] Rosemary: Yes.

[00:15:51] Bronwyn: Wow, that's really cool. And then, so the book you've written, is it about exploring that and then how we can think differently? Or is there another focus.

[00:16:00] Rosemary: Well, it, I really, um, propose how to live life through a strengths-based lens, but it's really about learning from the times that we haven't. Because that's where the personal growth is. If we are able to then see those opportunities as learning opportunities. 'cause it's not about staying on the path of what's strong the whole time, because that's unrealistic and we, we are just gonna put ourselves up to fail because we can't do that.

It's more about reflecting on the times that we don't, and throughout the book, I, um, there are about 31 reflection tasks to help build on the idea of flipping, uh, what's wrong into what's strong, as well as learning from the times that we don't.

And, and it's based on my observations, also based on the, the study that I did on childhood trauma and, and healing from trauma. I mean, I say childhood trauma and, and you know, I guess I'm focusing on what's wrong, but it's really about how to, to process trauma and, and heal it because we learn, how to heal, um, when we know what, what the damage was.

[00:17:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. Could you tell us a bit about that study?

[00:17:16] Rosemary: Essentially, um, I became really interested in the, the reason, the meaning behind human behavior and why certain people responded in certain ways. And so that led me, uh, on this path of really exploring as much of the, the science that I could find about it. And that was in, in part, you know, why I studied, um, counseling as well. And so I just went on a journey to, to learn as much as I, I can, you know, that and whether or not it was about, um, neuroscience or placebo or, um, you know, adverse, um, child studies. So anything that could give clues or to the meaning behind behavior, and it made me reframe sort of behavior, like a behavioral issue into an adaptation because what we're seeing is an adaptation to someone's experience.

Uh, and and that was really obvious to me with my clients who would come to me and say, my child's acting up, they've got, they've been diagnosed with something or there's a behavioral issue. And I'm not saying that that's not the case, but if, if we see it as well, they're adapting to their environment, their family has changed, has changed and, you know, maybe they're more sensitive than one of their siblings or, or other children and they might need more support so that, um, adaptation can give parents and any practitioner involved in that child's care or care of that family, their clues as to how to best help them.

[00:18:55] Bronwyn: Yeah, I can see, and I resonate with what you're saying as well, it's like rather than labeling the kid as a bad kid who's got pathological behaviors, we can see that what they're really experiencing is an adaptation to the stressful environment that they've had. This is the best way that they've worked out how to survive. And then, like you said, maybe, they've got heightened arousal or heightened sensitivity to certain situations, and that's causing them to behave in this way, which might be mystifying to outside people, but actually make sense in the context of their life.

[00:19:27] Rosemary: Yeah. And then if you look at, you know, my clients come to me when they're going through the grief and loss process of the, the ending of a relationship and all the layers of change that come with that. So, you know, sometimes it can be even more challenging to then work out what's happening with the kids and what, what needs to be done or what can, can be done.

[00:19:53] Bronwyn: So really like your whole framework is trying to flip this and like you said, trying to stay in this strengths-based approach rather than this deficits based approach.

[00:20:01] Rosemary: Yes.

[00:20:03] Bronwyn: Yeah, this seems like a really good approach to me for imposter syndrome because I know a lot of early career mental health therapists,there's just a lot to learn, um, in, in our profession, and it can feel really overwhelming and we can feel very inadequate for not knowing everything there is to know straight away, and we can become focused on, oh, why don't I know this? Why aren't I doing this correctly? Um, I'm inadequate with this client. I feel useless with that client. And to me, this feels like the overthinking that you were talking about earlier.

[00:20:36] Rosemary: Hmm. Yeah, because it's, it's an- analyzing a situation we, by really picking on or focusing on what's not happening or what's wrong or where the deficit is.

[00:20:48] Bronwyn: And I was just wondering because in your book, I know you've created, I guess, a strength-based tool for self-reflection. You said you've got like 31 reflective prompts, and I guess I'm wondering, is there a way that we could use some of these prompts to help with imposter syndrome, for example?

[00:21:03] Rosemary: Yeah, I think so because actually the strengths-based, uh, tool in my book was really born from my pre, um, case management discussions and, and post, uh, mediation debriefs with my colleagues. Uh, often I'd have a co mediator so we'd work together. And so if I was able to show them my hypotheses about the situation through a strength-based lens or then, you know, talk about it afterwards, it was helpful.

And essentially what it was is the trends that I noticed showed, you know, that everything was either gonna be what's wrong or what's strong. So, but I went further, uh, with this tool to actually name what was happening. So, you know, it might be that there was a lot of judgment. Okay. And I thought, okay, well that's under what's wrong. So what's the, what's strong, uh, equivalent or opposite, and that would be understanding.

So that was born into a scale where you could either be closer to judgment or understanding at either time. And we use it with ourselves as professionals as well, in terms of how we reflect on our own work and, and, you know, other scales are, uh, criticism and respect. So, you know, we, you can make up your own. It's, it's, it's really about, a simple way to name what's happening and also what's not happening.

Because when we're saying, when we're in that mindset of I'm not good enough, or I dunno what I'm doing, everyone is better. We are in the deficit mindset, and I call that mindset 'the lacking'. And so to move to the mindset that's focused on the strength, which I call the strength, then what are we not doing? We're not, we're not seeing what we are doing well, we're not seeing how far we've come, you know, in the in since we started studying even. We are not seeing our determination, we're not seeing the compassion that we bring by just sitting in the room, you know? And that can also be challenging because we actually don't, we don't really know the impact that we are having we can have glimpses, but we never really know.

[00:23:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's hard to get that external validation. You're right. Um, because sometimes it's, you don't see it, and I imagine with your services as well, they're time limited, so you may have good results in the moment or you may not. And then down the track it actually is really helpful for the people who you deliver the services to. I think as therapists, it's the similar thing. You may see it in the moment, but you may also be having impacts that years down the track, uh, lead to positive outcomes that you're not witness to.

[00:23:52] Rosemary: Yes. And we, we don't know. And that's, and that's just part, part of the work. And that's fine 'cause it's also about being okay with that and, and not knowing. And I mean, when clients don't need us, then that's the, that's the goal, isn't it? For them not to have to come back to us.

[00:24:13] Bronwyn: Yeah. So I guess just coming back to those scales you developed, it was quite easy for me to see that when we're experiencing imposter syndrome, we're having a lot of self-criticism and a lot of self-judgment, and then we're not having that respect and understanding for where we've come from. What sort of reflective questions might you ask to help us move along those scales to more understanding and respect for ourselves?

[00:24:38] Rosemary: So it, it could be about rewriting, uh, our thoughts or a situation, you know what, whatever it is, through a strength-based lens. So this is what my thoughts sounded like through the what's wrong lens, through the lacking in the deficit lens. But what would I be saying if I was saying the opposite? And that's a very simple way to just do a complete you know, change.

But it could also be around looking at what our thoughts, feelings, and actions are, uh, when we're going towards the, what strong lens in a particular, you know, case. Even just the way that we debrief, uh, to- with ourselves, with our colleagues, with supervision. It could be a way to sort of help prepare for individual supervision.

[00:25:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, that's a really good point. And it does sound like it, your approach is very self-compassionate as well. It's like something that I often do with clients and I'm beginning to teach them self-compassion, is I'll say to them, imagine that you were speaking to a person you love about this situation. What would you say to them? I want you to practice saying that to yourself. Does this sound similar to the approach that you're using?

[00:25:49] Rosemary: Yes, and, and actually last night I went to see Gabor Maté and he's got this, you know, um, compassionate inquiry, um, that he used. And a lot of a, a lot of the examples that he used and, and the Q and A with, with the audience was, well, if someone else, if once you know, one of your friends or your children or a child, you know, you know, came to you, what would you say? And it was all of that, you know, self showing, self-compassion. Yeah.

[00:26:19] Bronwyn: Because we can quite often be so negative and critical towards ourselves. It's almost like a pattern that's been ingrained in us. But when we think of how we would say it to somebody else who we love, suddenly it's much easier to be kinder.

[00:26:31] Rosemary: Yeah, that's right. And that's part of the challenge because we do have our default lens that, you know, we were taught and that we were shown, or that we, we had to take that lens or that view or that path in order to survive. So then, you know, what I'm proposing then can be quite challenging, uh, because it's going against the default

[00:26:54] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. But it's something that we can practice.

[00:26:58] Rosemary: And that's, that's why I think I've got the reflection tasks in the book that slowly builds on the concepts and add to them so that, you know, readers can apply their own situation, to the reflection task and at their own pace.

[00:27:14] Bronwyn: And what are you hoping that people will end up with? Like is the overall goal to reduce this overthinking or is there something else that you're really hoping readers will get out of the book?

[00:27:23] Rosemary: Well, look, if I wasn't an overthinker, I wouldn't have written the book.

[00:27:27] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:27:28] Rosemary: So it's more about feel, feeling empowered about, you know, overthinking or even other, you know, characteristics or ways of being that we have that we see as a negative or we've been told a negative. To really em- embrace it and flip it into a strength. So, and, and if you can overthink, you'll also be really good at reflection because they use the same skills. It's just a different focus.

[00:27:56] Bronwyn: That's a really good point. So you're not trying to pathologize overthinking even and trying to be like, I'm gonna stop you overthinking. It's like we're just trying to get you doing that through a different lens, because reflection is more of a strength-based, whereas I always think of rumination as like quite a negative lens of overthinking.

[00:28:14] Rosemary: Yeah, and yeah, so if you can do one, you can do the other. And it's not necessarily about stopping overthinking, but just ways for us to catch ourselves and learn from it, because that's where the personal growth is. We, there's, there's limited personal growth when we are in, in a strength-based mode, and don't make mistakes. It, it's, it's about drawing on those mistakes as a learning opportunity.

[00:28:42] Bronwyn: Is there any other advice you would give to mental health professionals who are really struggling with overthinking? Like, I guess we've heard that we need to make sure that we are practicing, not thinking in a negative way about ourselves from a deficit space perspective. Is there anything else that you would say to mental health professionals about overthinking?

[00:29:03] Rosemary: It's a normal process and if, if you are an overthinker, then you're an overthinker full stop. It doesn't have to be a hindrance because maybe. Someone who, overthinks is someone who's going to, uh, analyze a situation. And that might mean that you'll see different options or different approaches to use in the room. You know, and you can work, work on, on that aspect as well.

And, and not just about the work in the room, but then your own growth as a professional, because if you are an overthinker, then you are going to contemplate and be quite reflective, or you can turn that into reflection and then look at, okay, well what did I do well and where are the areas that I could perhaps do differently next time

[00:29:57] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think it's just something that we often forget. I remember when I put that into my own self-reflection where I said, what was one thing I did well in this session? I was like, wow, this is a revelation. You know, like we're not often encouraged to think about the things that we've done well, it's always the improvement, which I think can really tie into making us look at ourselves from a deficit perspective.

[00:30:17] Rosemary: And yes, it's interesting because in all the organizations that I've worked with as a mediator, when there's two mediators working together as a co mediad model, the first thing that we say to each other when we finish and the clients have gone is let's talk about what went well, you know, and, and, what we observed from each other, you know, that, um, worked well or, or just, you know, that we want to compliment them or, or, or, or notice. So I think I've been lucky in that aspect that it's, it's always been, um, built into the system.

[00:30:52] Bronwyn: That's so good. That's really fortunate. I agree. Because yeah, I haven't experienced that at all in my many workplaces, which is unfortunate.

[00:30:59] Rosemary: Yeah. And that's, that's what I'm, I'm hearing time and time again and, you know, I, I did a, I was a guest speaker for the Australian Counseling Association, one of their chapters just last week. And it was a common theme that of, of, you know, perhaps feeling unsupported or unappreciated, uh, in, in, you know, organizations that are supposed to be trauma informed.

[00:31:23] Bronwyn: Absolutely. Um, and it's like, I guess if we're constantly thinking that we're inadequate and not doing enough, it is contributing to burnout, from my perspective at least. And so appreciation and focusing on what we're doing well seems pretty critical.

[00:31:36] Rosemary: Yes. Yeah, it really, it really does, and that's where, you know, it's really important that we can do that with ourselves because we might not get it with other, where we are working or with everyone in our team, or we might only get it with our supervisor. So if we can show that strength based approach, trauma informed lens to ourselves, then that's gonna help us build resilience when we are working in environments that aren't trauma informed.

[00:32:05] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm just thinking like, I guess back to our conversation at the very start, we were saying that some of us try to measure how well we are doing by how helpful we are to our clients, but we may not see that in the session, and so we might not get that external feedback. So it seems really important that we can come up with different ways for telling ourselves that we're doing well.

[00:32:26] Rosemary: Yes, that's right. And that's, you know, part of the, the challenge of working in an area where people don't see our work, it's only really if there's a client complaint...

[00:32:38] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:32:39] Rosemary: ...you know, that things, you know, or if you know the opposite, a client, we get a client compliment, you know, and, and you know, both can be quite rare.

[00:32:48] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:32:49] Rosemary: So then it's really up to us to be open and honest with ourselves. And, you know, having the legal background, I often look at it as, well, how can we be a witness? 'cause a witness, it doesn't judge, it doesn't give an opinion, doesn't take sides. It simply states what it saw and sometimes that approach, it's almost, you know, like externalize, externalizing ourselves from the situation.

[00:33:18] Bronwyn: Yeah, it is, but it, in doing so, it can remove that automatic judgment that we have on ourselves. It's like the witness has seen that we've been empathetic, we have listened well. We have clearly tried to understand where the client is coming from and work towards a solution or outcome that's beneficial for them. All of it can be really helpful for us to hear.

[00:33:38] Rosemary: Yes.

[00:33:38] Bronwyn: Hmm. I really like this way of thinking about it. It already makes me feel better, like intuitively. I'm like, oh, this is nice. Rather than thinking of myself as useless.

[00:33:46] Rosemary: Yeah, no, it does. You, you do feel a lot lighter. And that's also a clue to the quality of our thoughts because when we feel lighter, we know we are definitely in a more of a strengths-based approach. We're going closer to understanding than judgment 'cause judgment feels heavier.

[00:34:03] Bronwyn: So have you applied this model in your mediation work or to clients and what have you seen if you have?

[00:34:09] Rosemary: Yes, well, I would use it, um, routinely to prepare, to help me prepare, especially when I had a co- co mediator to sort of, um, talk a little bit about, you know, my, maybe my hypotheses about the situation or if it was a second mediation, this is what happened in the first, let's look at how can we work towards you know, bringing more understanding and and respect sort of into the room.

And also, as I mentioned before, post case debrief, looking at, uh, you know, what worked well, what could be done differently. Any things or even to things to raise with my supervisor in terms of what was coming up for me.

And you know, one case that I always remember when I talk about, you know, this is a case where my judgment really stopped the flow of the mediation, and so, and it wasn't that I was saying, no, you shouldn't do this, but I was hesitant to, to agree to allow them to agree to what they were proposing. And and so it kind of saw me in an indirect way sort of dance around the, the subject without, you know, going to, going directly to it.

And then in my head, I sort of visualized the judgment and understanding scale, and I realized that I was just putting in what I thought they should do or what I would do, or even, you know, what some of my colleagues would do, because what they were proposing was very different and not what I'd done in the past. And, but every family's different and every family works in a different way, and I wasn't supporting that and allowing that. It was, you know, I saw that in my head judgment and understanding, and I realized I'm just being judgmental and not showing understanding to their, their family. And as soon as I did that, everything flowed.

[00:36:10] Bronwyn: Okay. So you are almost getting in your own way when you were judging.

[00:36:14] Rosemary: Yes. And it was, it was unconscious, you know, until I actually, I, I thought about the tool in my book and I thought, that's what I'm doing. I also realized how easy it is to get stuck in the what's wrong lens or going down that path 'cause once you take that path, you get evidence to support that, you know, and our clients do that. But we also do that in terms of how we reflect on our own work and our role in the room. So that, you know, just that sort of moment of awareness where I realized I've been going on for 20 or 30 minutes dancing around, uh, you know, asking 'em if they're sure or what, you know, whatever the case may be, when it's their family, there's no safety concerns and that's just how they work. Maybe, you know, professionals think that's not the way it should be, but it worked for them.

And, and she was actually one of the clients that did then give compliments. I didn't get a complaint, but, but yeah, she was, you know, quite complimentary and, and told all her friends, you know, so it was quite interesting where I, and I was quite hard on myself in, in that, I guess my own discussion in my head of, of what I did and why I did and how I did it, and then equally as, um, critical of the fact that I allowed them to perhaps work in a way that wasn't necessarily, wouldn't necessarily be, accepted by my peers. And I mean, as I said, there were, there were no safety concerns. It was just, following the natural way that this family operated.

[00:37:57] Bronwyn: Mm. It's really interesting. I think what you're describing is quite a normal, natural thing that I think all mental health professionals would experience, which is, if I boil it down, it would be that some people have different ways of living to our- our way of living, and we could become judgemental in that and be like, no, they should be doing this. So I guess some shoulds come up, or maybe that's not the best thing for them.

But like you said, when you took a step back and you realized that you're in judgment instead of understanding, in understanding, we can recognize that people are the masters of their own lives and that's okay if they have different ways of operating to us.

So, yeah, I'm, I'm proud of you for being able to do that. Well done. Um, 'cause I think yeah, it's such a normal thing and I think, um, I've been there myself and I've been like, this isn't quite the way that I would live my life or do that decision. But they're able to make their own decisions and do their own thing.

[00:38:46] Rosemary: Yeah. And, and their family as a whole benefited from it.

[00:38:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. Which is great. That's a good outcome for everyone.

[00:38:53] Rosemary: Yeah, that's right.

[00:38:55] Bronwyn: Yeah. But it can be so difficult when we're stuck in that judgment and then we can become panicky and being like, oh my gosh, like they're doing this thing and I'm allowing this, rather than allowing them to take the reins of their own life.

[00:39:07] Rosemary: And that's where we get stuck into our client's life or as, as part of the system, don't we?

[00:39:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. And especially when you add on that layer, like you said, that maybe peers wouldn't recognize this as an acceptable thing to do. So how am I gonna justify this to my peers?

[00:39:23] Rosemary: Yeah. That was quite big. Yeah.

[00:39:25] Bronwyn: So this way of approaching it can be deeply transformational, I guess, for both ourselves and for our clients. Like you said, you got compliments from the clients and everyone at the end of the day had a good outcome.

[00:39:37] Rosemary: Yes, definitely. And that's where I say that, you know, this strengths-based approach or living in a trauma informed way, it's not just for our clients, it's for ourselves. And it's not just for our, the professional part of us, it's also for our personal side. And, and because it all impacts each other.

And I guess the, the inspiration behind my book and the, the observations that I noticed really stemmed from watching both parts of me, the personal and the professional, um, really just come into who I really am. For me, it started when I started working as a mediator because I was in a strength-based environment and given evidence of my strengths, and it was very different to my previous roles, and it just elevated my sense of self. And that it wasn't just, I couldn't sort of switch the sense of self at, at work and at home because it was just, um, it was all connected.

[00:40:36] Bronwyn: No, that makes a lot of sense to me. I often think about our work as mental health professionals as like, you know, it's one of those professions where you are the tool that you are using to help other people. So you really need to take care of yourself, um, and make sure that you are using the, or the tools that you give to others also on yourself. And it sounds like your approach really embodies that.

[00:40:56] Rosemary: Yes. That's, that's what I'm really trying to get out and, and, and, you know, share with all mental health practitioners or anyone who works in, in a, in a service or any, anyone who's willing to listen.

[00:41:09] Bronwyn: Yeah, y'llou tell anybody? Yeah. Which is a good message. Um, rose, Mary, what do you hope listeners will take away from our conversation today?

[00:41:18] Rosemary: Well, I think the main thing is that self-compassion, to not be so hard on ourselves and, you know, when, when there's a moment where we are going to be hard on ourselves, how can we flip that into a learning opportunity and see a, a strength or a purpose in that?

[00:41:35] Bronwyn: Really important. Yeah, 'cause, when we don't, we can get stuck in shame and negative emotions and it can really impact us and stop us from progressing.

[00:41:45] Rosemary: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's almost like using the same tools with our clients that we will with ourselves.

[00:41:53] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's such an imp it, it sounds so simple, but it's like such an important reminder, so I'm really glad that you brought it up. Thank you.

[00:41:59] Rosemary: Oh, thank you.

[00:42:00] Bronwyn: Rosemary, it's been so lovely to have you on the podcast today, and thank you so, so much for sharing both your personal and professional self with us. If listeners wanna learn more about you or your book, where can they get in touch?

[00:42:13] Rosemary: The best way is through my website, rosemarygattuso.com or, or through my social media, Rosemary Gattuso.

[00:42:21] Bronwyn: And what's the book title?

[00:42:23] Rosemary: It's called, it's Not You, it's me: a Chronic Overthinkers Guide to Self-Reflection.

[00:42:28] Bronwyn: And can that be bought in print and ebook?

[00:42:31] Rosemary: Yes, print, ebook, and audio.

[00:42:33] Bronwyn: Oh, do you do the audio?

[00:42:35] Rosemary: I do.

[00:42:36] Bronwyn: Well done. I've heard that it's hard to record audio, like it's just hard reading your own work.

[00:42:41] Rosemary: Yeah, it was a work in progress, but I think I got there in the end.

[00:42:46] Bronwyn: Good for you. Well done.

Rosemary, thank you so much again. I think this has been really insightful. I love for listeners that we can remind them of these really important aspects of practice, which is to use that strength-based approach and that we can apply it to ourselves. So thank you so much for writing your book and for coming on the podcast.

[00:43:05] Rosemary: Oh, thank you, Bronwyn. It's been lovely chatting.

[00:43:07] Bronwyn: And listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you found this episode insightful, make sure to follow Mental Work so you never miss an episode. Leave a rating or review and share this episode with a friend or colleague who might find it useful. Just stick in their ears so that we can make sure we get the word out.

That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.