Creative arts therapy and making the leap to private practice (with Abi Jenkins)

[00:00:04] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast. The podcast about working in mental health for mental health workers.

I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about navigating that transition from employment to private practice as an early career creative therapist. There's a lot going on here with this episode.

So it's a listener story. You're going to here about their journey and what it was like for them to move into private practice quite early on in their career. Many mental health workers wrestle with imposter syndrome, financial uncertainty, and the pressure to get it right when moving into private work, and I'm really keen to hear from our guest today about all of these topics and more. Here to help us out today is our wonderful guest. Their name is Abi Jenkins. Hi Abi.

[00:00:45] Abi: Hello. Thank you for having me on.

[00:00:48] Bronwyn: It is so nice to have you on the podcast and welcome. Can you please tell listeners who you are and what your non-work passion is?

[00:00:55] Abi: Yeah, so I am a registered creative arts therapist and counselor, so my specialty is in dance and movement therapy. I facilitate individual and group therapy sessions and community dance groups as well, which are non-therapeutic.

My non-work related passions, I like everything. Um, I do a lot of pottery. That's probably my biggest passion outside of work and doing anything outdoors or active. I love being in the ocean. I love hiking and, yeah, I'll try anything.

[00:01:36] Bronwyn: It sounds like creativity really embodies your life.

[00:01:39] Abi: It really does. It really does it. It always has. I've been dancing and doing pottery and in drama my whole life, so yeah, it's everything.

[00:01:50] Bronwyn: So it sounds like it was quite natural to bring that into your work.

[00:01:54] Abi: Yeah, it was. It definitely was. And I remember at the end of my psychology undergrad I was trying to decide where I was going to go next, 'cause I didn't really think clinical psych was gonna be the right path for me. And I did a lot of research and found that dance therapy was a thing and there was a course coming to the University of Melbourne, so it all just like fell into place and I got to blend everything that I love. So I feel very, very fortunate.

[00:02:24] Bronwyn: That is so awesome. I'm so glad that you were able to find that. I can just imagine the light bulbs going off for you and be like, yes, yes, yes.

[00:02:31] Abi: Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of my peers who I studied with had the same experience. It was just like this moment where everything aligned and you're like, yes, that's it.

[00:02:40] Bronwyn: That's so cool. So we have to ask you, what is dance therapy and how is it different to dance?

[00:02:46] Abi: Dance therapy is a psychotherapeutic modality. It uses dance and movement and bodily expression as the main form of communication in a therapeutic session. Um, that can make it really accessible for people who may be, uh, nonverbal or prefer not to speak. So it can be, um, a completely nonverbal session, which I've had before in aged care, working with people quite advanced dementia.

Um, then I guess some of the main differences between dance therapy and dance. Um, therapy is a place where your emotions can, um, really rise up and become quite challenging and there's a lot of exploration and I guess the intent to have that personal growth. A dance class, that might not necessarily be the intent, it might be the outcome. But the intent in dance therapy I think is really important.

Um, another key difference is that we really work towards specific goals. So they might be social or emotional, they might be cognitive, they might be behavioral or general wellbeing. And I think again, dance class has a very different intent that's usually around progressing technique or working on performance. So, yeah, for me it really comes down to the intent.

[00:04:19] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I agree, 'cause I, I often think, like I hear in public, people say, oh, therapy is just talking. And I, and I think to myself, that talking can be therapeutic. It can be, and that can certainly be an outcome of talking. But the way that we do that in like psychological therapy for me is that I do have this intent on personal growth and achieving people's goals, and we do it in a particular way that makes it quite therapeutic.

[00:04:48] Abi: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. It's really similar with dance therapy, I would say. It's just a different way of, of communicating, I guess, dance and using your body and gestures. It's just a, it's just a different way of expressing.

[00:05:04] Bronwyn: Yeah. Do you know how big the dance therapy, like how many of you are there? Do you, do you have a ballpark figure in Australia?

[00:05:10] Abi: I don't have a ballpark in Australia. Um, we are a growing profession for sure, uh, especially since the University of Melbourne launched in 2020, their Master of Creative Arts therapy. And so there's a dance therapy stream and a drama therapy stream. And since that, the cohort has grown significantly. Um, I think in South Australia. Oh. I would say maybe around 10?

[00:05:42] Bronwyn: Wow. Okay.

[00:05:43] Abi: -as registered clinician.

[00:05:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. So small but-

[00:05:47] Abi: -that's my ballpark.

[00:05:48] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, it's really good to know because I've never met a dance therapist before, so it's really exciting for me to have you on the podcast and for you to be here. Thank you so much for explaining what dance therapy is.

Let's dive into, I guess, the main part of the podcast, which is that, you were in full-time employment when you first started out, and then you decided to go into private practice 18 months after starting. For some people, that's a massive leap and it can be seen as quite early on in your career. So could you tell us what was happening for you around that time and what led you to make that decision?

[00:06:22] Abi: Yeah. Um, it was definitely a massive leap. I think it did feel like it was quite early on, but we were also told in our master's program that we might have to make a lot of our own work happen.

Um, so in my previous role, I really, really loved it. I was working as an outreach dance therapist in residential aged care, and it was, it was the best workplace. So supportive, beautiful clients. Uh, leaving was a really hard decision, but I was at a kind of crossroads, I guess, in my personal life. I was living in Victoria at the time. I really wanted to come back to South Australia. My family's here, my partner's here. So it was really just making that decision, I guess, about what was best for me.

And I struggled to find work as a dance therapist in South Australia. A lot of mental health positions here require you to be registered as a psychologist or a social worker, or to be able to access Medicare rebates, which is something that creative therapists and counselors don't have access to at the moment. So I, I opened my own practice.

[00:07:45] Bronwyn: Wow. Yeah. I have heard that it's quite difficult for creative arts therapists to find work, in particular outside of Melbourne and Sydney because that's where the creative arts- arts courses are located, right?

[00:07:58] Abi: Yes. Yes, that's right.

[00:08:00] Bronwyn: And then you can do placements around that. Like I know a lot of the music therapists do placements at hospitals around the Melbourne CBD, um, but outside of that, it sounds like it is quite difficult to find work.

[00:08:11] Abi: Yeah, it is really difficult and you do really have to advocate for yourself and your profession and I guess why you should be seen as an Allied health professional because we are like, we have to do an undergraduate and a master's degree to become qualified and it's 750 hours of clinical placement. Like it's a lot of work.

[00:08:36] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:08:37] Abi: -That goes into being a registered creative arts therapist. So it's, it's a lot of advocacy.

[00:08:42] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. So it is a lot of advocacy, a lot of steps there. And so you leapt out into your own private practice. Could you tell us a bit about what that was like for you? Like had you had a previous business background or was that completely new to you as well?

[00:08:57] Abi: That was completely new to me. Um, I'm very much like I will jump in and figure it out as I go, um, because I, I really, that's how I learned best is through experience. So I was really fortunate to find a practice here in Adelaide. They're so open to having a multidisciplinary team and they were really interested in my experience as a dance therapist. So I joined a group private practice, and having that option took a lot of the, I guess, businessy side of stuff off my plate for a little bit because I don't have to manage my invoicing and how do I collect referrals and intake information, 'cause a lot of that is done for me, which is nice. So I could focus on moving interstate and settling in and, and working out what I guess percentage of my time do I wanna be doing individual work versus group work.

[00:10:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, sure. Okay. So you moved to Adelaide and then joined a private practice, got established, and then did you leave the private practice or you still with them?

[00:10:12] Abi: I am still with them, so I, I run my, I guess, individual sessions through the practice and then through my own business I run my group aged care sessions, so I get to do a mix. Yeah.

[00:10:30] Bronwyn: No, that would be really helpful because I think it is a steep learning curve to learn about how do I get referrals, how do I manage invoices, how do I manage my business structure? Because you've already got a lot of that in deciding like, what are my services gonna be? So it's not everything taken off your plate, but it is, it is a little bit to help you manage.

[00:10:49] Abi: Yeah, absolutely. And when I had first started to do some research into, I guess how you run a private practice, it was the little things that I knew were a thing. But I hadn't really considered like the internet connection and the cost of that and your phone line and the computer and where's your office space gonna be, and I just, it was too overwhelming for me on top of moving into the state and completely going out on my own, so...

[00:11:18] Bronwyn: Absolutely. What have been some of the biggest opportunities and challenges you've had in making the transition to private practice?

[00:11:27] Abi: I think some of the biggest opportunities I've had, probably completely being in charge of my own schedule and the services I provide because I, I really, really love running group sessions and working with group dynamics is so interesting. But I also really love the individual work as well and the really deep therapeutic relationships that can come out of that. It's, they're just completely different ways of doing therapy and I love both.

So that was, that was a really awesome opportunity and also to, to push myself and challenge myself a bit.. I really like having, having to learn something completely new and figure it out. So they're probably some of the biggest opportunities I've had.

[00:12:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, I really resonate with the freedom that comes with setting your own schedule and your services. It is, it is a bit like, okay, there's a big open door here and I can do anything. And so sometimes the freedom can feel overwhelming, but it can also feel really cool when you've come from not necessarily a restrictive place, but having that decided for you rather than deciding yourself.

[00:12:40] Abi: Yeah. Yeah. And I think coming from employment, so we were funded, which meant that we had KPIs that we had to meet to get the funding. And so sometimes, and it's completely out of the organization's control, really, like you need to meet a certain number of group sessions or individual sessions to still be getting the funds to offer you service. So it's nice to not have that pressure as well. If I know that there's a really big week coming up and I can take a Friday afternoon off to look after myself, I can do that.

[00:13:16] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, that totally resonates with me as well. It's like, because running my own private practice, I don't have KPIs, so it is that freedom to be like, oh, I've got something coming up in a few weeks. I'll schedule a few fewer clients, and it still makes my heart like race when I think of KPIs and I'm just like, oh my God, the stress, you know? And having every week to have the same output. And for me telling myself, well, I'm not a robot, so how can I be relied upon to do the same output every week? And then I think of my poor colleagues who might have medical conditions or disabilities where that is also harder, and it just blows my mind that we're expected to do this.

[00:13:50] Abi: Yeah, it, it can be really, really challenging and some people manage it really well. Personally, I did not, I am very, like, I'll stretch myself as thin as I can go until I break, so.

[00:14:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. It just takes a huge load off you. It really does.

[00:14:08] Abi: Yeah.

[00:14:09] Bronwyn: I'm really glad that that was, that's been key opportunities for you. Is there anything else you wanted to add about, I guess, how it's been like and how it's been beneficial for you to go out on your own?

[00:14:18] Abi: I think it's been beneficial because I can really, I can inform a lot of different areas of the general public about dance therapy and I can bring that service to a lot of different areas in the community. If I've seen someone privately who's maybe never seen a dance therapist before, or I go into residential aged care or into a community group, it's just really special to be able to bring I think something that's so powerful and so expressive and can be a really joyful form of therapy as well into so many different areas of the community is, is such a privilege.

[00:14:58] Bronwyn: That's a really great point. Like there's a huge advocacy and I guess educational aspect to what you do because a lot of people haven't heard about dance therapy and that it could be this allied health service that people could benefit from.

Um, when I've spoken to creative art therapists in the past, they've said to me that they've gotten clients who are dissatisfied with the services that they've gotten through traditional talk therapy and believe that they couldn't be helped because that was the only option for them. And so they've been delighted to find that there's like music therapy and art therapy. Is that similar to your experience?

[00:15:30] Abi: Yeah, definitely. And I think even having the skills, if somebody wants to come see me for counseling, you know that, that's great. We can talk about their problems, but I can also offer a lot of body-based exercises that might give them something extra in their self care routine or to support their emotional regulation or to have them really grounded and present in the session, and I think that's one of the really nice ways that dance therapy can kind of be worked into different, different forms and different ways of practicing therapy because we're body-based practitioners and you know, our bodies are with us all the time, so.

[00:16:12] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's so valuable just to like add to you because I'm so, I've been, um, I'm really big on studying trauma and you know, a lot of what I learned about treating trauma is that it's in your body and we need to help you regulate and get you outta trauma time essentially, and back into your body in the present. And it sounds like dance is really well suited to that.

[00:16:33] Abi: Yeah, it really is. It really is. And and when you can start to teach your body, you know that you're safe and there are practices that you can do to sort of bring that, I guess, hyper arousal down, it's, it's so lovely that being able to sort of rewrite that script that we have.

[00:16:51] Bronwyn: Mm, awesome. Love what you do.

Could you please tell us some of the challenges that have been presented to you in moving out in on your own?

[00:17:01] Abi: I think one of the biggest challenges is pricing myself and my sessions. So my old role in Victoria, we were funded, we were able to offer a services for free to clients, which I loved. Um, not, not the case now in private practice, and that can be really difficult, uh, because we're not offered Medicare, uh, we're not on that system. So it is a, a private fee, and that can be really out of reach for a lot of people, particularly at the moment.

And that's a real challenge because I guess when you think about it from a business perspective, you know, how do you make an income, how do you pay your bills? But then from the other perspective, it's, you know, we're here to help people and that help is just not affordable for some people. And that can. Lead to some, I guess, ethical dilemmas as well around, uh, what I'm doing and, and how I'm offering it.

[00:18:09] Bronwyn: It is such a big tension, isn't it?

[00:18:12] Abi: Yeah. Really tricky and sticking to those financial boundaries, like charging the cancellation thing for last minute cancellations makes my heart sink every time. It's, it's really, really challenging because I don't want people to be paying for a service that they're not getting, but at the same time where you've turned up and you've done your preparation. So it's that balance. And I, I, I grapple with that all the time.

[00:18:42] Bronwyn: Yeah, it, it is such a challenge and I think a lot of listeners will resonate and relate to that. I certainly do. It's really, you've got a business hat, but then you've got these whole values that you came with, that you've got you into this profession, which. As helping people and making sure people can have access to your services, but then you also need to charge a fee so that you can be sustainable.

[00:19:03] Abi: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's tricky and getting the balance is tough.

[00:19:08] Bronwyn: Yeah. How have you navigated that? Like have you had people in your life where you can talk to about these things? Or is this a personal journey for you, or have you gotten resources?

[00:19:17] Abi: I would say it's mostly been a personal journey for me. I've brought it up with my clinical supervisor a couple of times. We've had discussions about it. I also, I work part-time, so two days a week I'm doing some dance related work that's not therapeutic, and that means that I have a stable, reliable income. So it does give me a little bit more flexibility with, you know, what I'm charging for my sessions and cancellation fees, 'cause I'm, I'm not always as, as good at sticking to my boundaries with that as I should be. Uh, but particularly as I, I'm still kind of building my business and growing my business having that stable income, I think has been a really important resource.

[00:20:06] Bronwyn: Mm, absolutely. It is, it is so tough. It's like, 'cause I've, I've wrestled with this, the same thing and sometimes I come up with ways of reframing it, and then I'll remember that for like a week and then I go back to this awful tension feeling and I'm like, oh, I don't wanna do this. So in my mind I'll be like, but I'm building capacity so I can build my business so I can help more people. So I need to charge the cancellation fee so I can do that. Um, and then when I've got, you know, an extra $10,000, my business kitty, I'm like, oh, I'm so glad I did that because then I can invest that in X.

Um, but then like a week later I'll be thinking to myself like, oh, I don't wanna charge that cancellation fee, that poor person, blah, blah, blah. Um, and then I feel so much guilt and it's just like this, uh, uh, topsy-turvy like thing that I go between, does, can you relate to that?

[00:20:52] Abi: I can absolutely relate to that. And I think especially when you know a client's story and you're like, oh, I really don't wanna be doing this!

[00:21:01] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:03] Abi: I- at the, the practice I'm at, our admin team are incredible and they'll be like, you need to stick to this cancellation fee.

[00:21:15] Bronwyn: I have to say that if, um, if I'm, if I had to do it again, if I had to do my time again, I would definitely start out with an admin person right from the start so that they can set the boundaries for you because this, otherwise it's just, it's just too hard with this, you know, go between and being inconsistent. Um, but yeah, love admin as the in-between person.

[00:21:33] Abi: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it is important to be consistent, and I think rationally we know that because that consistency builds reliability and trust. But at the same time, it's tough.

[00:21:47] Bronwyn: It really is. It is so tough. Like we're we, we come into this profession with like so many values and quite often, like us, ourselves might have had financial instability.

I know I have like quite early on. Um, and it's just like. I, I remember making a commitment when I first started out. I was like, I'm gonna make sure my services are affordable. And then when I did the, the budgeting, I was like, I can't make my services affordable because that means that I earn like $18,000 a year. And it's just like, oh, that sucks.

Has it gotten better for you over time? Like, do you feel like you've made some headway into navigating these financial, like challenges and these tensions?

[00:22:22] Abi: I do, I do. I've definitely made some headway. I think a lot about the amount of time and energy and money I invested into studying to be able to do what I do. All of my professional experience from before I was a therapist, when I was working as a a dance teacher and also all of my life experiences and how valuable they are in what I do as well. And I have to think about all of that as... I think the thing that I struggle with the most is why would someone pay that much to see me?

[00:23:10] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:23:11] Abi: So then I, I do kind of have to reframe it and it's, well, I've got all of this experience and I can, I can share that experience with whoever's coming to see me, and I think that makes it a bit easier for me to navigate that tension.

[00:23:29] Bronwyn: Yeah, I mean that sounds like a bit imposter syndrome-my. Is that something that you relate to?

[00:23:35] Abi: Yeah, absolutely. It's something I've had personal therapy for and clinical supervision about, because it just pops up when you don't expect it as well. Things will be going fine and then you get offered an opportunity and, oh no, I couldn't do that. Or why would you want me to do that?

[00:23:53] Bronwyn: So it sounds like reminding yourself of how far you've come in the study you've undertaken and what you've done, like essentially reminding yourselves of your skills and capacities is helpful.

[00:24:05] Abi: Yeah. Yeah. And also I've got clients that come back to see me and age care facilities that want me to go back to them. So you know, if. If they didn't wanna be paying me, they, they wouldn't, if they didn't think that my skills and the services that I offer were valuable. Like, people aren't spending money right now if they don't need to or want to, so.

[00:24:30] Bronwyn: 100%. So it's like you've got external evidence that what you do is valuable and that people value that and they don't have to value that, but they choose to do that.

[00:24:41] Abi: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. And uh, you know, sometimes I can't get myself into that head space. And it, it is, thank you to my therapist and my clinical supervisor.

[00:24:52] Bronwyn: Yeah, and sometimes you do need those external reminders because our mind does kind of talk us out of our own value.

[00:25:00] Abi: Yeah, it really, it really, really does, and I think especially in a helping profession, we've got so much drilled into us around empathy and the importance of therapeutic relationships and compassionate person centered care, and that can feel really at odds with like those kinds of tricky financial and business decisions around, you know, how much you charge and sticking to your cancellation fee.

So sometimes you do need that more objective voice to come in and remind you of why you need to be charging for what you're doing and why you need to put value on what you're doing.

[00:25:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's so hard. I think a lot of people struggle with imposter syndrome and I think sometimes society can add to that as well. I've been reflecting on that. It's like when society undervalues, allied Health Services, undervalues mental health services, it gets to me. I dunno if it gets to you as well.

[00:25:57] Abi: It gets to me a lot and I think growing up in the arts as well, arts is so undervalued. Really undervalued. I remember even at high school, we had a fundraiser during school musical once , and the school's football team asked if we could give our profits to them so they could go on a footy trip and we need performing arts facilities at this school. It's important for people. Arts as a community just as much as, you know, sport or something else. Not to devalue sports, sport's great.

But yeah, so I, I really feel that, you know, as an artist and also as a therapist and especially creative therapist, 'cause it can look like, oh, you're just having a bit of fun dancing with people. What are you really doing? But there is like transformative change happening for people, you just might not be able to see it.

[00:27:04] Bronwyn: Yeah. And I, I see the point of the story as well, because it was like in that moment they were saying that our needs are greater than your needs. And you're trying to say, look, I'm not trying to put you down, but our, our needs are important too.

[00:27:16] Abi: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, I think not getting into it too much, but we're seeing it at the moment with the NDIS and the creative arts therapies, you know, potentially being cut, as a therapeutic service. So, you know, we've got time to see what happens with that. But it, it does, it does kind of make you think, well, I know that what we're doing is really important, but it seems like sometimes...

[00:27:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. And it can translate to how we feel about ourselves and it's just like, well, maybe, maybe what I'm doing isn't important, because these people don't seem to think it is, and they're not putting their money in it, so maybe what I do isn't important. And so, yeah, it does, it does really mess with us.

[00:27:59] Abi: Exactly. Exactly. And I think it is important. You know, it's not gonna be for everybody and that's okay, but for the people that it's important for, it's really important for, and that needs to be valued and respected.

[00:28:13] Bronwyn: Absolutely. And I, I completely agree 100% on board. It really upsets me that these changes, potential changes within the NDIS could come into effect that would completely make it out of reach for practitioners to work within the NDIS and make it out of reach for participants to access services. Um, that's very upsetting to me. I can't remember my other point because I went on a rant. Um.

[00:28:35] Abi: That happens to me all the time.

[00:28:37] Bronwyn: I was like, oh, I got caught up in the rant.

I think another thing with creative arts therapy, and I always think this for Allied Health Services, is that there is so much diversity in our community, so it is impossible for one style of mental health service to benefit everyone given the diversity in our community. I would be so shocked and surprised if talk therapy was the therapy that everybody benefited from in our community. It just, it would just wouldn't work for me because we have so much diversity, so we really need more different types of modalities so that everyone can access and benefit.

[00:29:14] Abi: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's why it's so important for all Allied health professionals to really come together and advocate for each other as well, because we really are all in it together and we all service different groups of people. And I think if we're divided, it just, it, it can lead to particular parts of the community being left out and not having access to the supports and services that work best for them. And it can also leave, you know, colleagues and your peers out in the cold a bit. So I think it's important for Allied Health professionals to really have each other's backs.

[00:29:57] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too. 100%. And it's just like if we're all working together, then if somebody tries to devalue what we do, then we can all work together to be like, hey, this is valuable. All of us are value. Everything that we do is valuable.

[00:30:09] Abi: Yeah, we all have our own special skill sets and unique ways of working and I don't see how that can't make us stronger when we're all together, so.

[00:30:19] Bronwyn: Mm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, that's like, that's my passion as well. It sounds like we have equal passions about all of us working together and just not leaving each other out in the cold.

Is there any other lessons that you've picked up along the way in going out on your own, I guess, quite early in on in your career? And I guess I'm interested in how you've managed your wellbeing as well.

[00:30:39] Abi: Managing my wellbeing... I like to spend a bit of time on the weekend, which I know sounds horrible, but if I do it on a Sunday afternoon or evening, spend some time looking at my calendar, making my to-do list for Monday, I can really make sure that everything is organized and I feel like I come into the week with a bit of a better head space and I can be a little more productive and particularly save a lot of time on the admin tasks that I need to do. And when I save time on that, I have more free time for whatever I like.

[00:31:16] Bronwyn: I do the same thing. Um, yeah, so it's like when I would prepare for my week of clients, I would do it on a Sunday afternoon and I would make sure I have all the files. This was back when I used like paper files, and I'd make sure that I get all the paper files out and make sure everything's in place. And then I wouldn't be running around during the week trying to figure everything out. So it was like past Bronwyn helping future Bronwyn. It sounds like past Abi helps future Abi.

[00:31:38] Abi: Absolutely. I like to look at, okay, which facilities am I at on a Monday? What time do I need to leave to get there on time? Can I review the notes from the last section and make sure I, I kind of have an idea of what we want to do in the next session, that I can just go into the next day feeling like I've got this.

[00:31:58] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, I, I think sensible.

[00:32:01] Abi: Thank you. I think so too. Sometimes my partner's like, Ooh, working on a Sunday, and I'm like, I gotta do it.

[00:32:08] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's, I can understand where they're coming from as well, and I totally get that. It's like it'd be preferable to have like a day where you just don't think about work. But I think the reality is that this actually helps us during the week.

[00:32:19] Abi: Yeah, absolutely. And I know that it will make it easier for me to switch off if I feel organized and prepared, because I'm not gonna be thinking, oh, did I do that thing that I was meant to do? Or what was that that was on my to-do list that I feel like I've forgotten about, but I don't quite remember what it is. I've got all of that sorted and managed, and I find that I need that rest during the week more than the weekend, because you've gotta sustain... If you're working five days a week like I am, you have to sustain yourself all week.

[00:32:55] Bronwyn: So I guess maybe that brings me to burnout prevention potentially. Like is burnout something you've encountered even at this early stage of your career, or is it something you've been able to prevent? What- what does your practices look like around that?

[00:33:10] Abi: Yeah, I was definitely burnt out in my previous role. I think something that has helped me a lot with burnout is working with my clinical supervisor at the very early stages of me starting my practice around what my ideal caseload would be because I do travel for the aged care sessions, so I have to factor that in as well, 'cause that can be quite a draining task in itself. Driving and managing traffic and getting to places on time.

So having a look at, well, what's my ideal caseload that means I can pay my bills, but I'm not going to be overstretched. And can I build it in a way where if I've got a bit of a longer drive I can sort of stack those sessions while I'm only doing that once a week or once a fortnight rather than two or three days in a row.

So yeah, I would say working with my clinical supervisor and really being quite firm on what my caseload is, has sort of helped that, or I guess, prevented that burnout from coming back.

[00:34:22] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. So it was really being, uh, having a, a large case load that led to your burnout in the first place.

[00:34:30] Abi: Yeah, and some really long drives. I had some drives that were over two hours.

[00:34:35] Bronwyn: Gosh. That's really long.

[00:34:37] Abi: It was a lot. It was a lot. And then, you know, you have to do all of your notes and admin tasks and things as well, and I was happy to do it because I loved the work and I loved the organization I was with, but it did burn me out.

[00:34:50] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, uh, thanks for speaking to that because I think that's a common thing as well. It's like we do, we do love the work and so sometimes we are willing to stretch ourselves because we're like, like, I love doing this, I love seeing these clients. Um, and then burnout can kind of creep in and it's like, oh, actually I'm doing too much here. This is quite hard.

[00:35:09] Abi: Yeah. And burnout can be really sneaky because it goes from a feeling of I'm a bit more tired than usual to i, I can't function without sleeping 10 hours a night.

[00:35:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And so it sounds like that burnout has receded a bit, like you feel a bit more, um, able to manage what's happening for you.

[00:35:30] Abi: Yeah, absolutely. I feel a lot more in control, and I think that's been another benefit of working in private practice for me, is I can completely manage my own schedule because I don't have the pressure of the KPIs.

Also not jumping straight in and working full time in private practice because my other work is not therapeutic and it's, it's dance based, so it's just two days in a row of dancing with some of the best people ever.

[00:36:01] Bronwyn: I have a curious question on that, not related to anything we're talking about, but so you do dance like non therapeutically and then you do dance therapeutically. Is it at all hard for you to manage those different roles or do you find that it's easy for you to have that distinction in your head?

[00:36:16] Abi: I think it's gotten easier to have that distinction. I think initially it was difficult because I have such a long history of working as a dance teacher, and I had done some choreography for a while as well, to not be in an educator space as a therapist... to really let people have their own expression.

I think I then swung the other way, and in the classes that I was teaching, I was like, oh, free dance and it's all about you and whatever you want. And then, well, we're not really meeting the goals of what this job requires. So I think it's something I've gotten better at over time. But initially it was really difficult to separate the two.

[00:37:01] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I imagine that that's a mental load on you as well.

[00:37:04] Abi: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, there are sort of educator based skills that apply really well in therapy, group therapy, especially around managing group dynamics and being able to really confidently facilitate a session. There's also therapeutic skills that work really well in an educator space around, you know, managing people's wellbeings and making sure that you are giving people enough time and space to process things in the way that they need to. So it can sometimes help to have the blend, but yeah, it, it can be hard to separate as well.

[00:37:43] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, really interesting. I'm, I'm glad that that's gotten a bit easier for you over time. So, looking back, is there anything you wish you had known before making the switch to private practice?

[00:37:54] Abi: I think the main thing I wish I had known was around kind of finding what your thing is and making that the center of your marketing and your communications. When I started, my business name was Art Therapy with Abigail and it wasn't as clear as what it is now, which is Aligned Dance Therapy at which I changed after maybe less than six months of starting because it's just, it makes it much more clear about what I do and what my passions are and I think when you try to do everything and try to do too much too soon, it makes it really hard for people to figure out if your service is gonna be right for them, and it kind of dilutes your message and what your mission is in your practice. So yeah, I think kind of working it down into that niche and being really confident and clear in that, I wish I had done.

[00:38:56] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, that's so important. And you know, I've checked out your website and it is very clear. So like when I looked at your website, I was like, I just wanna get a sense of what Abi does in like 30 seconds and I was able to achieve that. So well done.

[00:39:07] Abi: Yay. Thank you.

[00:39:08] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:11] Abi: It took getting it wrong to get it right.

[00:39:13] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It is a process. But that's, that's such a great point about trying to work that out because sometimes if you're, if you're not specific about what you do, you may get people who inquire and it's like, oh, no, no, no. I'm not that service. And it can be a bit of like working out what you do and trying to help them work out what you do.

[00:39:31] Abi: Yeah. And it just gets confusing for everyone. So just, just work out what your one thing is and if you wanna expand from there. When you get comfortable, you can.

[00:39:40] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:39:41] Abi: So I tried to do it all at the beginning is you've got too much on your plate.

[00:39:45] Bronwyn: 100%. And was that something that you worked out on your own or was that help from supervisor or elsewhere?

[00:39:52] Abi: That was something I worked out on my own because I felt like the first six months especially, and I know everyone told me it takes time to like grow a practice and to be getting referrals, but I felt like I was doing so much work and getting absolutely nowhere, like hardly any clients, and I just thought something isn't working.

[00:40:14] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:40:15] Abi: And it was, it was the branding and the way I was communicating.

[00:40:20] Bronwyn: So when you changed that, did you notice a difference in referrals?

[00:40:23] Abi: Absolutely. Because it made it so much easier to create flyers to send to aged care facilities about what I do and why it's important and would they like to book a session. And in the first three weeks of January, I had nearly 12 facilities sign up to the program. So it really, like, once I changed it, it happened so quickly. The- just being able to communicate what you do and why it's valuable just became so much easier.

[00:40:56] Bronwyn: Oh, that's so good. I'm so, I'm so pleased for you. I'm glad that that worked out really well. Having worked at a hospital with older adults, um, which, which is a cohort who I love working with as well, but you know, we would do exercise. Every day. And an exercise physiologist would take them through and I'd often participate as well. Um, 'cause why not? Um, um, but some of them, it's like, I know that they would've loved to have danced instead. and it's like that, that music and dance component like would suit a lot of them as well. So if somebody sent them a flyer being like, I offer dance therapy, I know a lot of them would've taken it.

[00:41:30] Abi: Yeah, it's, it's really incredible running dance therapy in aged care. I could talk about it all day, honestly, because the, the music and the movement can be gentle enough for a range of different mobilities.

[00:41:46] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:41:47] Abi: And it just brings back so many beautiful memories for people. And when they start sharing their memories as a group, that people learn so much about each other and the people that they're living with that they, they didn't even know. So it's, it's the best, it's the best work.

[00:42:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, 100%. So good. Okay. Is there any other advice you would give to other early career therapists who are considering private practice?

[00:42:13] Abi: I would say do some research in different types of private practice and work out which of those is going to be best for you. Because it can be tricky, I think going out and just doing it all on your own.

Um, sometimes going into a group practice or working as an independent contractor in an existing practice can sort of make it a little bit smoother, I guess, as a transition. Because you can have the option to have that extra admin support so you don't have to worry as much about invoicing and how you're gonna pay for internet and things like that.

So yeah, I'd really recommend doing research into different types of private practice in which is going to be most suitable for what you want.

[00:43:10] Bronwyn: Yeah, I'm just curious. Like with, uh, so you're part of, I'm gonna pronounce it wrong, but I think it's ANZACATA, do you know if they have like webinars and stuff for people who are members about business?

[00:43:21] Abi: I haven't seen any webinars about business. I know, PACFA, which is one of the counseling associations in Australia do have, um, checklists and workshops for setting up a private practice as a counselor. So that can be a really helpful resource as well.

And even just doing a quick Google, you'll find a lot of practices have created packages that you can pay for and download that will have a checklist of everything you need to consider and your initial forms to get started, like your intake and your referral.

[00:43:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, I would say that to listeners as well. Like you don't have to reinvent the wheel here to start out, I would look for other resources that people have made and that you can purchase and webinars.

And if you need something free as well, when I started out, I contacted my small business association in my state, so I'm in WA and I talk to a lovely person, I still remember her name. Her name is Rosetta, and I think Rosetta and I became like, best friends, um, maybe from my perspective, not from her perspective. She's like, who's this annoying person talking to me for hours? But she said she was cool with it.

Anyway, I talked with her for like a few hours about like setting up my business and what to do. And at one point I was considering going into a lease with someone I didn't know, and Rosetta was like, that's a bad idea. And I'm like, okay. Um, so there, there, there's lots of free resources out there is the main point but there's lots of people who have come before us who we can lean on for that as well. And do a bit of research, like you say.

[00:44:52] Abi: Absolutely. And I know for anyone that's in South Australia, there's a small business hub and they often run mentoring programs at a discounted rate, particularly for women starting up a small business. Uh, I did that and it, it really, really helped with marketing. And how to set up a website and those things that I had never done before and had no idea how to do. So it definitely pays to do your research. I would say.

[00:45:21] Bronwyn: That's so good about the women's hub and that's so true. I know in WA here they offered that for women as well and I did look at that. It just wasn't the right time for me. Um, but that's really good to hear that you benefited from that. It was really strange actually. Were you like the only Allied Health person like doing that or were there other people?

[00:45:39] Abi: I'm not sure. So I worked one-on-one with a mentor. It wasn't a, it wasn't a group. I think I paid like $90 maybe for three hours of support. So I, and if you've ever looked into getting business support as a paid a paid service, it's very expensive.

[00:45:59] Bronwyn: Yeah. That's super cheap. Yeah, that's great.

[00:46:01] Abi: Yeah, take advantage of any opportunities that are out there and get an expert to help you.

[00:46:06] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And lastly, what do you hope listeners will take away from our conversation today? Is there anything that you want to leave them with in particular?

[00:46:15] Abi: I think that private practice is really exciting and it can be a challenge. It means you need to learn a lot of new skills that maybe are not preexisting, but I, I want listeners to take away that you can just go for it even as an early career therapist, your experience and your knowledge is still really valuable and you've still got a place in private practice. So

[00:46:42] Bronwyn: Yeah. Awesome. And if listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:46:47] Abi: So they can find me at aligndancetherapy.com.au. That's my website on Instagram or Facebook as Align Dance Therapy. If people want to get in touch, they can email me at info@aligndancetherapy.com.au. And if you are in South Australia, the southern suburbs of Adelaide, you can join me every second Monday for a community dance group that I run as well, and come chat to me in person.

[00:47:19] Bronwyn: Amazing. Do you have a style of dance that you do, that's your favorite.

[00:47:24] Abi: I would say contemporary, because it can be so expressive and it's still got elements of ballet, which is what I, I grew up studying, so.

[00:47:33] Bronwyn: That's awesome.

[00:47:34] Abi: -love it.

[00:47:35] Bronwyn: That's awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been a real delight to have you on and speak with you and talk about your journey and what you've learned along the way. So thanks very much for sharing this with us.

[00:47:45] Abi: Thank you so much for having me. I loved chatting to you about dance therapy and, and what I've been doing, so hopefully it's valuable for your listeners.

[00:47:54] Bronwyn: Yeah, and we wish you the very best in the future.

[00:47:57] Abi: Thank you. Thank you so much.

[00:47:59] Bronwyn: Listeners, if you found this episode insightful, follow Mental Work in your podcast app so you don't miss any future episodes. You can leave a rating or review or share this episode with a friend or colleague who might be considering private practice. Or anybody else, we just like the podcast being shared. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to mental work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.