Burnout: In the thick of it with Matthew Jackson (Part 1)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey mental workers, Bron here at the top of this episode to let you know that today's episode is the first part of a special two parter where we talk to regular guest Matthew Jackson about burnout, thoughts of quitting, and finding a new way forward in psychology.

[00:00:15] Part one, which you'll hear today, was recorded several months ago while Matthew was deep in the middle of his burnout and he shares with us his personal thoughts and raw experiences of this time.

[00:00:25] Next week in part two, we skip several months forward to find out how Matthew is doing now and his reflections on burnout. I just want to say a special thank you to Matthew for being so vulnerable and sharing these deeply personal experiences with us. Burnout is a term thrown around a lot these days, but rarely do we hear from people how deeply it can affect us.

[00:00:44] That's enough from me. Here is part one of a very special two part episode with our guest, Matthew Jackson. Enjoy!

[00:00:51]

[00:00:54] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about the really challenging and sometimes heart wrenching decision to leave psychology. Many early career psychologists grapple with burnout and wonder if they can continue in the field that they're so passionate about.

[00:01:15] Today, we dive into this reality through a personal story that really sheds the lights on the pressures and decisions faced by those in our profession. So, we'll talk about some of the signs of burnout, the difficult choices that come with it, and maybe finding a new path. So, stay tuned for an honest and insightful conversation, and we hope it will resonate with you or just give you some insight as to what is going on in maybe all of our minds at times.

[00:01:41] And here to help us out is our return guest, Matthew Jackson. Hi Matt.

[00:01:46] Matthew: Hi, I'm back yet again.

[00:01:48] Bronwyn: Welcome. And so how would you describe who you are? Wow, what a, what a question. Who you are and are you in, have you been into anything lately?

[00:01:58] Matthew: Um, what a like super easy, simple, non complicated question. I love that. Um, I would describe myself typically as a really like fun, effervescent, extremely sarcastic, jovial person. Um, haven't been as of late, hence today's topic. Um, and something that I've really been into. How do I put this without sounding depressed? I promise I'm actually genuinely fine. I've really been into sadness. And I genuinely mean that, even though like I chuckle, I genuinely mean like I've actually really been into just being sad.

[00:02:43] Bronwyn: Is there anything that you find helps connect with or exemplify this sadness? I'm thinking sad music, sad movies, or are you just being with the sadness?

[00:02:52] Matthew: Actually all of it. So, um, I'm not at the stage of sad movies. I think that might kind of. A bit too much for me, but um, just really sitting with the emotion, writing out what I actually mean by sadness. It's such a generalized term, um, and one million percent listening to like as much Lana Del Rey and Adele that I can listen to, uh, in any given moment.

[00:03:16] Bronwyn: Wow. Both really, yeah, encapsulate sadness. Like instantly when you say both of those, I'm like, oh yes, sadness. Yeah.

[00:03:26] Matthew, I guess we're talking today because I got in contact with you and I was like, Hey, how you going? And you were like, Hey, I've decided to leave psychology. And I was like, Whoa. Um, so that's, that's where we are now. So maybe tell us, I think for you, it started maybe with burnout or was there another trigger point for you that led to you making this decision?

[00:03:49] Matthew: I think, I think for the past two years I've been thinking about leaving psychology. I was actually reflecting, I was actually reflecting about this with my, um, remedial massage guys. So, hi Andrew. Um, he knows about the podcast actually.

[00:04:10] Bronwyn: Oh, cool. Hi, Andrew.

[00:04:13] Matthew: Um, uh, we were talking about, like, switching careers, something he's done, um, and he was reflecting to me that he's noticed a lot of people, when they switch careers, it's usually because there was some, um, like really life changing moment or experience that occurred. And I was thinking to me, oh, but it's just burnout. And then that made me think, oh, maybe that's not a good enough reason.

[00:04:37] Bronwyn: Oh.

[00:04:38] Matthew: And then I thought about it further and I was like, no, no, no, no, no. There's always something behind something. So, this burnout didn't come out of nowhere. I know there's something behind it. And I can totally recognize that the pivotal life changing moment for me was definitely my dad's passing. And because of that, that's, that changed the way that I viewed life and work, careers. And then, ever since then, that moment, that would have been about two years ago, um, ever since then, I've noticed burnout with a completely different lens.

[00:05:19] Bronwyn: Yeah. So what changed about your view with burnout? Like, do you mean you were noticing different things in yourself or was it a completely different reframe of what it was?

[00:05:29] Matthew: Completely different reframe. So I think, previously, when I had experienced burnout, I think it was very minor, right? So very like, maybe fatigue, stressed, and that could be quite easily, um, healed, with like a bath, a facial, a massage, that type of thing.

[00:05:50] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:05:51] Matthew: And then, what I have been experiencing, I think, has been much more major, and has led to, like, physical pain, um, oh my god, so many symptoms, actually. But like, physical pain. A lot of loss of sleep. Attention wise, I'm like, not present. I don't know where I am, but I'm definitely not here. Um, I even like, randomly started dissociating.

[00:06:19] Bronwyn: Oh.

[00:06:20] Matthew: Yeah, and I was like, but I, I like life. I like what I do. Why don't I want to be here anymore? What is going on? Um, why do I want to like, check out and go into a fantasy land? What's happening? Um, there were so many symptoms that I noticed that couldn't be healed with a bath or a facial I've realized that those symptoms, they required like a systemic change. They needed something big.

[00:06:46] Bronwyn: So no matter how many facials you got, it's like, it would still be there. You'd still have the loss of sleep, like maybe the dissociation. I guess I'm hearing exhaustion.

[00:06:56] Matthew: Quite... like, I um, made a list of all of the things that I do and have always done, uh, to help me combat burnout. I've actually ticked off everything on my list, everything, and my burnout is getting worse.

[00:07:12] Bronwyn: Oh God.

[00:07:14] Matthew: I've um, I've spent like $2,000 on medical appointments. You know, like massages and stuff like that, um, trying to like get this into check, like I've done the work and so I, I do have to like now step back and go, yeah, the list that needs to be thrown out, I, I don't know if this is going to help.

[00:07:35] Bronwyn: Mm. So, okay. So about two years ago, your father passed away and I wonder like, did you, how did you process that? How did you go through, I guess, the grief and loss of that? And do you feel like you were well supported, I guess, personally and maybe professionally with, with that loss?

[00:07:54] Matthew: The way that I processed it was by throwing myself into work,

[00:07:59] Bronwyn: okay. Yep. Yep.

[00:08:01] Matthew: um, the, like, if that gives you a picture of what schemers may be at play for me, Um, I did exactly what my dad would do, which is throw yourself into work. I definitely disclosed that loss to colleagues, supervisors, that type of thing, and I found that people actually fragilized me.

[00:08:27] Bronwyn: Oh.

[00:08:28] Matthew: Yeah, like, a lot of my colleagues actually fragilized me and wouldn't challenge me on things or, um, kind of open up certain discussions in supervision, group supervision, things like that. Uh, which I can understand, and at the same time, uh, that didn't necessarily help me to kind of realize that actually I could talk about these things, and that I should talk about these things, and that actually it's having a far larger impact on me than what I knew it was having, and I think because of that reason, that kind of hurt my relationship with psychology as well. That idea of like, oh, I, I want to talk about these things and I know the perfect place to talk about them, you know, in a session. That's perfect. And, um, like what I'm getting from colleagues is this like, yeah, fragility of like, um, if, if we like ask Matt how he is, you know, he might cry and it's like, what?

[00:09:36] Bronwyn: So, like looking back, do you wish that maybe colleagues had taken a different approach? Like kind of being like, Hey, Matt, like you just lost your dad. Do you wanna talk about it? Like, do you want us to be a little fragile around you, or do you not want us to be like that? Something like that.

[00:09:51] Matthew: Yeah, I, I actually think I wish I had taken a different approach. Yeah, I think that people responded appropriate to them. Like, that's, I think that's perfect to who they are. And I, at the time, I recognised a thought that I should actually leave psychology. Like, for a period of time, um, work on myself, et cetera, et cetera, and then come back to it when I feel like my grief has reduced a little bit, um, but my schemas were activated around that time and I was like, yeah, no, that's not happening. You're just going to throw yourself into work and, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[00:10:34] And so I don't wish that anybody had responded differently but myself. I wish I had listened to that initial need of, oh, you need a, you actually need a break from psychology. Like it's, it's time to pack it up, have a rest, go do something else. Go grieve, go wild, go travel, and then have a think about returning. I wish I had done that.

[00:10:58] Bronwyn: Yeah. So, okay, so I guess there was that point where you were like, okay, I could leave psychology, but I'm going to keep going. And I'm wondering, why now then? What made you think, okay, I'm going to leave now?

[00:11:12] Matthew: Actually an amalgamation of things. It was like, um, it was actually quite like the universe made everything happen all at once. Every dot that has ever existed all connected at once for me. So, it was, uh, standing up to a supervisor who was bullying me. Um, standing up to that person and telling them like, this is not gonna, I'm not gonna stand for this.

[00:11:41] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:11:42] Matthew: It's time for you to go. Um, that really did it for me. Um, I think also starting therapy again and processing grief. That really helped. In doing that, that then led me to psychology and because I no longer had that smoke screen of my dad's passing impacting me as much, it was now, okay, so now what's impacting me?

[00:12:09] And the next big, next big thing was psychology. And so it was like, okay, everything's kind of coming all at once. I have an opportunity here to travel. I have an opportunity here to like throw myself back into drag. There's so many things happening all at once and psychology itself like clinical work therapy is like down the end of the list. I'm not thinking about it I don't want to think about it. So now it's time to think about it

[00:12:45] Bronwyn: It kind of sounds like psychology became like a ball and chain.

[00:12:48] Matthew: 100 percent

[00:12:51] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:12:51] Matthew: It felt like it felt like I had finally, I want to say finally that's actually Interesting that I want to describe this like that. It sounds like I had finally come to the realization of why I was doing psychology, and like what was actually keeping me in it. I think because of that, that then opened up the door to the burnout itself.

[00:13:20] Bronwyn: So like, what's the answer to that question? What was keeping you in psychology?

[00:13:26] Matthew: It was my schemas to impress my dad.

[00:13:29] Bronwyn: Ah, interesting.

[00:13:31] Matthew: Right. So, um, I think the very first episode we did, but I could be wrong, but I think the very first episode we did, um, I think one of the questions was like, what got you into psychology or something along those lines. And, uh, my answer was something along the lines of, since I was like 14, I think I knew. and I think that's like partially correct, but I think I'd also kind of manipulated myself into believing that a little bit. I think I knew I wanted to work with people, but I don't think it was necessarily in like a clinical therapeutic sense actually. Um, and that like where I kind of went wrong, if you will, was that I chose psychology rather than another path that I could have taken and that probably would have made me a lot happier. And those schemas activated at the time and were like, you know what, you should really like what your dad loved. So this is what you should do?

[00:14:32] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:14:34] Matthew: This is what you should do?

[00:14:35] Bronwyn: So understandable as well. I mean, most of us do want our parents love and affection. Yeah.

[00:14:41] Matthew: That we do.

[00:14:42] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:14:44] Matthew: Um, um, and I feel like that's what was keeping me in psychology, and then when he's, with his passing, those schemas I think were kind of like, so now what do we do?

[00:14:57] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:14:58] Matthew: Right? Because like, I can't, I actually can't get my goal achieved now. So wait, why am I doing this again? Like, what am I doing here? And I think for a period of time, I then thought, well, there's something wrong with me then? Like, I've lost the purpose, something's going on with me, I, you know, I just gotta like, grid it and go through it. And in going through it, going through it, going through it, I think I was more so kind of like, masking the fact that Psychology just wasn't, it just wasn't working for me anymore, or it isn't working, or something along those lines.

[00:15:34] Bronwyn: Did you kind of just hope that if you just kept on going, then the purpose would come to you? Like you would get it eventually?

[00:15:41] Matthew: I think so, and I think also that like, if I just kept going, I think I thought, oh, maybe I'll like this again.

[00:15:48] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:15:50] Matthew: You know, that like, that traditional idea, this was something definitely my dad taught me, but that traditional idea of like, you choose a career and you stay with it, and I think in, uh, going to therapy, I've been able to actually recognize for myself that, oh, actually not many people last or stay in one career for their entire life.

[00:16:16] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, like I read this research ages ago, but I think it's like for our generation. So like you're in your thirties, right? Yeah. I think for our generation, it's, um, like six or seven jobs throughout your lifetime. Like career wise. Yeah.

[00:16:32] Matthew: Oh my gosh, so that means I'm on like number 4, like the 4th field or something.

[00:16:37] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:16:38] Matthew: I love that actually.

[00:16:39] Bronwyn: So you'll actually have another, like, maybe two or three more careers, like, on average.

[00:16:44] Matthew: That's actually really exciting.

[00:16:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. Who knows? Yeah.

[00:16:50] Matthew: So exciting.

[00:16:51] Bronwyn: Okay, so you had all these things going on and then the burnout was continuing on. You just hoped that, look, I'll like this again. When we make decisions about things, it's usually, I'm going to say it's usually not clear cut. Like you, you do see in movies people being like, I'm going to do X or I'm going to do Y and then they just go for it. But I feel like when we think about decision making as a whole, it's kind of like dip your toes in the water, like there's pros and cons and then you just kind of get like, okay, I'm going to do this. What was it like for you?

[00:17:23] Matthew: Um, well, it's taken me, what month are we in now, the start of July, so it's taken me probably a year to come to this conclusion. It's taken me, yeah, 12 months to stop the pros and cons, to stop everything and actually just make a decision. Um, and I think, like, everything that preceded that decision helped me get to a place that Or I felt comfortable enough to say that to myself, but I think, uh, even just traveling, like being able to go overseas for a little bit and just reflect on what I want out of life really, really helped. I mean, there's that age old saying, right, that like traveling changes you, a holiday changes you, and this holiday definitely changed me. This holiday allowed me to to stand up to somebody, but also allowed me to actually like stand up to myself and admit that like I'm not happy in life and I chose a path that I regret and I, I don't enjoy psychology and I, I don't like all parts of it. I like some of it, but not, actually not all of it. Um, and then I don't like this and I don't like that and Oh, wait. Oh, now that I don't like it. Oh, the ball's gonna roll now.

[00:18:50] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:18:50] Matthew: Like, something's gonna come from this, I know it. Okay, I'll sit in that then.

[00:18:55] Bronwyn: And did the decision to leave psychology impact your mental health, your wellbeing, like, I'm hearing that it may have some positives because it presents new opportunities, but I'm wondering the impact, like you mentioned, regret, like, how has it affected you?

[00:19:13] Matthew: Staying in psychology has, uh, it's been actually really taxing. Being able to hand in my resignation, uh, has helped tremendously in being able to sit with it, the regret. And just accept it, and I don't want to say, I don't want to say backpedal, but kind of think, okay, well all of that happened, I've learnt a lot, it's happened for a reason, if I can go back to that like, T intersection moment of choosing psychology over other stuff... if I could, would I go back to that T intersection? Yes. Okay, well, what's stopping me from doing it now? Like, I can just go and follow a different stream. Like, if I'm in career four out of six, then it's time to find number five or go down that path.

[00:20:08] So, sitting with the regret has actually been okay, because I know that I can transform something out of that. Sitting with, like, the physical pain, because I can't, uh, you know, I'm, I'm working out my resignation period. Because I can't just leave, my body is like, increasing each symptom it's feeling. So today, my back is like, gone. And it's like, yeah, I know that's not because I did anything over the weekend. I know it's, um, or anything's strenuous anyway. I know it's because I can't just like, cure this burnout. Like, I can't just leave. I can't just go on a holiday. I can't just relax. You know, like I've still got to do psychology for a period of time now.

[00:20:54] Bronwyn: Yeah, I've I've found that with burnout in the past. It's like, like, and, and even leaving a job, your body's like, okay, finally we can relax. Like we're leaving, but you still got four more weeks, so your body just has to keep on going through and it's like, I'm in a lot of pain.

[00:21:08] Matthew: Quite literally, I had a conversation with my body this morning.

[00:21:12] Bronwyn: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:21:13] Matthew: Where I said, body, I am hearing you. I hear that you are stressed and you're beyond exhausted and you can't carry on and you're over it and da da da da da... But I can't do anything about this. Like we just have to finish out the period. It's another like two weeks. And then we're done. Then we can rest. So the twitching of facial muscles, the sore back, all of that, you're gonna have to get rid of that because I can't do anything about you. It's like, I'm sorry, we're gonna have to work through it.

[00:21:49] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Just two weeks more, mate. Like, yeah. . Oh my God. And I'm wondering as well, because I think, um, a lot of listeners may have this thought, I think, I think we're socialised to conclude, I wasn't cut out for the profession, rather than the profession wasn't cut out for me. And I just wondered whether you had had this thought and what, what your thoughts are?

[00:22:16] Matthew: My god, I love that. I'm noticing, I'm noticing myself tearing up because Yes. That's my response.

[00:22:26] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:22:27] Matthew: Right. Um, uh, that comes back to what I was mentioning earlier, like after my father's passing, throwing myself into work, it was like, um, I have to make myself fit into the profession. I know I don't want to do this, I know I really should take a break. I know I need to take a break, but I've just got to fit into this. I'm going to warp myself and change myself and we're going to do this.

[00:22:54] Whereas, in actual fact, it's the complete opposite, which is exactly what you're saying. That, I'm actually really good at it, like, psychology? I can do that. Um, my clients are like, they're living proof of it, they report it to me, I can see it, I can feel it, I know it. And, the profession, it's just not ready for me. Like, I know I'm a big personality. I know that I need a lot more flexibility, actually, in a profession. Um, and then I found some of the kind of rules of the profession quite restricting. That's my kind of a criticalness, I guess, there. Um, and then I don't know if it's necessarily ready for me.

[00:23:41] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:23:42] Matthew: My personality saw what I need in life. What my, like, inner Matt, what little Matt needs out of life. I don't think psychology can give me. It could give my schemas everything!

[00:23:55] Bronwyn: Oh yeah.

[00:23:58] Matthew: But little Matt, little Matt's sitting at like the head of the table and is like, so when do I get what I need out of this?

[00:24:06] Bronwyn: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:24:09] Matthew: I agree with you this is like I hope that people listening to this kind of really take that message that it's not necessarily about like you You not being good enough or right for the profession, it is sometimes that the profession just doesn't fit you and what you need and your personality and your goals and your style and oh my god, I can keep going on and on.

[00:24:34] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, and that's really important because yeah, I think a lot of people can feel like they have failed and that they are a failure, but yeah, like you're saying, it's not that you're not good enough. It's that we have this profession and that ain't gonna fit for everybody and meet their needs.

[00:24:52] Matthew: No, it's just not.

[00:24:54] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yep.

[00:24:56] Matthew: Like, I think about it from different angles too. Like, I think about some of the clients who I work with, right, I think about their professions and, um, uh, obviously I work kind of say too much, but, um, I think, could I do that? And I'm like, oh, never. Never in my life could I do what you do. Never. And then I think, wait, maybe I'm like, wait, can I flip that to me then? Hmm.

[00:25:26] Bronwyn: often have people say to me, if I meet new people out who aren't psychologists and they're like, Oh, I could never do what you do. Um, and so yeah, I think people do have that thought and yeah, when we break it down, it is like, like we do hard work and I've said this on the podcast before, we do a lot of hard work. We have a lot of emotional labor. We, we do so much as psychologists, um, and yeah, like. It's hard.

[00:25:51] Matthew: It is really hard.

[00:25:53] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:25:55] Matthew: I feel like that's, uh, in my own observations, I feel like that's the part of psychology that isn't spoken about

[00:26:02] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:26:03] Matthew: is just how hard it is for us. The, the requirements, like I hear the, you know, minimum of six years and an endorsement, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like, all the other requirements that it takes in psychology to do it?

[00:26:20] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:26:21] Matthew: like, like being able to sit with your own emotions and when you're triggered, what do you do with that? And, um, like, uh, the images, like the things you see, the, the things you hear, like, do you want to hear them? Do you want to see them? Like, all of those requirements, uh, in my experience, in my reflection are things that I never saw or were never taught. Even, like, self care.

[00:26:51] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:26:52] Matthew: Like, um, self care I actually didn't learn about until Masters, um, and it was actually just in one week. It was just in a one, one session, um, one kind of tutorial or whatever, and then it was over. And I was like, that seems easy. Okay, cool. I'll be fine then.

[00:27:09] Bronwyn: Yeah. I literally thought self care was just activities and I was like, oh, that makes sense. And I'll just do some exercise and I'll make sure that I go for a massage and I'm all self cared. Yep.

[00:27:22] Matthew: In my masters I was like, oh, I do activities. I like watch horror films and smoke cigarettes to deal with my own emotions. Easy. I've got

[00:27:30] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. And like, I mean, that's why we did the episode. It would have been a few months ago, but it's like, how do you actually process sessions? Because I feel like that's an aspect of self care that doesn't get talked about at all.

[00:27:42] Matthew: No! I feel like self care, uh, I don't know if that's even the term that we need to be using anymore. Maybe that doesn't actually capture anything. Um, but, Anyway, yeah, um, uh, sometimes the profession and us just don't match and it's okay to like, it's okay to take a step back from that. It's okay to do it like one day a week. You don't have to do it full time. It's okay to do it like that.

[00:28:14] Bronwyn: Yes, absolutely. I'm wondering, did you tell anybody about your decision, like friends or family and colleagues, and what were their reactions?

[00:28:27] Matthew: Okay, two very, very different reactions.

[00:28:34] Bronwyn: Interesting.

[00:28:34] Matthew: So, when I told family and friends the reactions I got were I'm so proud of you.

[00:28:42] Bronwyn: Aw, beautiful.

[00:28:43] Matthew: Yeah, right? Like, I'm proud of you. Um, I had one friend say to me, um, I don't think that's a career you can do forever. Like, the stuff that you hear, it's just not okay. I'm really glad that you're taking time for yourself, you're taking a break. I got a lot of compassion, validation, care. Made me want to be around my friends and family even more, actually.

[00:29:09] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:29:10] Matthew: Actually healed a lot of my schemas, if you will. Um, colleagues has been very different, not in a negative way, just in a very different response kind of way. So, some colleagues have been saddened by the news. So like, oh but you're so good at this, or like, oh I thought you were meant to do this. So those types of responses, and then other colleagues... I've loved other colleagues responses. Um, other colleagues With me taking a break, I've been prompted to think about if they want to do this profession any further. And if so, like in what context, and how does it work for them, and all that good stuff.

[00:29:59] So there's been, uh, no, no like negative response from colleagues. So I think half have been shocked of like, Oh, but, like, I've seen you, you're, you're good at this. Why would you stop being good at this? And then the other half are like, Oh, you're doing what I wish I could do. Oh, I'm not there yet.

[00:30:21] Bronwyn: Mm. That's interesting. Like, did you realise when people are saying, oh, I wish I could do what you're doing, like maybe how common thoughts of leaving the profession are?

[00:30:33] Matthew: Yes. Yes. I didn't realize that before. 100 percent did not realize that before. Now I'm able to have open conversations with colleagues who more about like, I don't know if I want to do this or if I do want to do this profession, like in what context, how many days a week, how many hours per day do I want to do this? What type of clients, etc, etc. That definitely wasn't a conversation happening before. And I feel like people are much more comfortable around me, much more vulnerable around me to have that conversation. It's actually, quite nice to see people thinking, um, about like, what really got them into psychology and what would they do in their life if they didn't continue with it.

[00:31:27] Bronwyn: Is there anything else that you wanted to say about the feelings or thoughts that have been happening for you since deciding to take a step back?

[00:31:37] Matthew: I would say that I'm really grateful to myself for being brave and courageous enough to actually take a step back from something that is not working for me anymore. I definitely did at some point. And there is still some level of enjoyability there, and I'm really, like, happy with myself for not getting lost in just that, that one feeling that I might feel once per week, and really tapping into like, okay, but what do I want to do with my life? Like, what do I actually want to do now? So, I'm just really proud of myself for that.

[00:32:19] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think it is very brave to be able to stop and be like, look, this isn't working. And particularly with all the pressures that we can face as psychologists to keep going. Um, like you said, people like you're good at this and we've, we've got clients that we often feel quite responsible for and that, like, how could I leave them? Like these sorts of thoughts. But yeah, so I think it is brave, it is courageous to be able to put like little Matt first and be like, look, this is your time.

[00:32:48] Matthew: Exactly! And I think that, like, um, you know, psychology is all It's all about everybody else, about other people, and so being able to take a step back from that and to focus on you is like, it's very different, but also very freeing. Like it's actually really nice to kind of, um, I don't want to say like just be the client, I've been that before, but um, to be like, a member of the community, rather than like, a psych and member of the community.

[00:33:21] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:33:22] No,

[00:33:22] Matthew: Very different.

[00:33:23] Bronwyn: So, what's next for you? Like, where do you, where do you see your career going or life?

[00:33:31] Matthew: Yeah, so I kinda don't know, and I am obsessed with that. I love it. I am leaving, like, full time psychology. I, um, Uh, we'll be seeing like a couple of um, individuals at least until the end of the uh, like private practice kind of wise, um, and then when it comes to like renewing my registration, I'll, I'll sort of review that, um, when, when it comes to that.

[00:34:02] Otherwise, I'm moving into a career that is way away from health. It is, it's, separate from psychology. I get to still use some of that stuff, like those degrees that I spent years earning and paying for. I still get to use that stuff, um, uh, but I don't have, like, the stress of psychology or AHPRA on top of me when I'm doing the next career that I'm going into.

[00:34:32] Um, plus also like I've, I've given myself a year in total. Like if I don't like where I'm going, I'll change it and I can always come back to psychology. I think that's like the main point here is that if you don't like it, it's okay. Like don't renew your registration or take a break. Have a sabbatical like I'm taking. You can always come back. You can even, like, come back over a decade. I know there's that, like, ten year rule. You can come back over a decade. You've got to do a few courses and stuff, but you can always come back. It's never, like, gone. It doesn't, that doesn't really necessarily work like that.

[00:35:08] So, I know for me, even though, like, I have a plan of, like, this is what I'm gonna do until the end of the year, and I have an idea of, like, well, hopefully in a year's time things will be different. I won't be as burnt out. It's also like, I don't know where this is going and I love that. I get to like, be that client. I get to figure this out now. This is kind of great.

[00:35:31] Bronwyn: Yeah. There's a lot of doors that are open.

[00:35:35] Matthew: Exactly.

[00:35:36] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:35:37] Matthew: I feel like, um, this is gonna, um, definitely reveal the like, very spiritual side of me. I'm a huge believer that like the universe will not keep you in something that's not meant for you. And the universe has been closing doors in psychology for the last like four or five years for me and I keep opening them and I haven't learned my lesson. It's, it's time to like purposefully close those doors so that new ones, like you were saying, so that new ones can open.

[00:36:13] Bronwyn: What about the burnout aspect? Like, how do you see yourself, I guess, recovering? How are you going to take care of yourself? Is, is there a plan there or is it kind of like take it as it comes?

[00:36:23] Matthew: I would say a little bit of both. So, I'm definitely hoping that with like, a massive reduction in clinical work, and not really using a psychological lens four out of five days a week, um, I'm hoping that that'll reduce a lot of the burnout that has occurred from clinical psychology itself. Also just re engaging in activities that I know used to keep me sane, like getting back into drag, um, getting back into, um, like music writing and, um, I love walks and hiking and things like that. Like, getting back into those activities I know. will reduce the burnout.

[00:37:07] Um, so it's kind of a bit of both. Like, there is a structure in, I know that these things will help, and it's like a, ah, these things aren't going to help until I've like finished my resignation period. So it's kind of both.

[00:37:22] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, but it sounds like, yeah, like drag, music, creative activities, identity feels good for you. Yeah, those sorts of activities can really go by the wayside when we're working so much and we have that emotional, uh, labour that we're undertaking.

[00:37:41] Matthew: 100%. It's like, if, if all of our emotions get reduced to like maybe a 0, 1, 2 out of 10, we're not necessarily going to feel motivated to engage in the activities that help us reach the 8, 9, 10 out of 10. Um, and so I'm hoping that, yeah, taking that like sabbatical from psychology will help me get back to that.

[00:38:03] Bronwyn: You kind of touched on this before, but I'll just ask it again and see if anything comes up. But looking back, is there anything you wish you had done differently during your career?

[00:38:11] Matthew: Um, I'm, I'm laughing... Uh, I'm laughing cause if I had an opportunity to go back, I really would actually take it. I, I wish I had taken like door number one and not done psychology, but if I had still taken door number two and done psychology, I wish I had taken the outs that were given to me all throughout the last, like, decade, actually, right?

[00:38:47] Like, there were times during, like, year one, first year, where I was like, wait, what even is psychology? Like, I, like, I'm, I'm in this, like, neurodevelopmental lecture, that's great. But like, wait, what is psych? Like, what am I actually doing? Like, how would I apply this? What, what is this career? Um, there's kind of an out there, or at least an opportunity to explore it further. I didn't take that.

[00:39:16] I think, even like, um, I wish I had reached out to psychs in the community and said to them, like, I, I want to be, like, I want to be really critical. What is psychology? Like, what do you do? Day to day, what do you do? Give me like a breakdown of like hour by hour. What does it look like? And then like what are the cons? Like this burnout thing that, um, I imagine is a part of this career... what, what is that? What do you do with that?

[00:39:49] You know, like there were things that I could have done. There were doors that I could have taken, things I could have explored... that, I just didn't. I listened to those schemas, I just like, sucked it up and I kept going and I wish I had kind of, I wish I had taken them and seen them a bit differently.

[00:40:07] Um, even like with drag, a couple years ago I had the opportunity to actually go full time. And I decided not to. Yeah! Like I was, like if I'm actually really honest, I was earning more in drag than I was as a psychologist.

[00:40:22] Bronwyn: Damn. Wow. That's cool.

[00:40:25] Matthew: Isn't that like amazing? Like, I was having so much fun, like, I was energetic, my fitness was there, like, oh, I, I felt validated and loved and beautiful and da da da. Uh, but the schemas kicked in and I was also like, wait, how do I leave my clients? Like, then I'm abandoning them and ugh, what a mess.

[00:40:47] But like, there's an out there. There's something that I could have explored and decided not to, like I, I stayed with that. But I studied this. This is what I, I thought I want to do, so I better just stay with it, right? I'll be happy one day, right?

[00:41:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's such a, I mean, it's such a common way of thinking to fall into, and I don't think you're alone in that. I think most of us think that way. I'll just stick it out and, and I'll, I'll like it. And this is what I've studied for, and this is what I've worked so hard for, so I'll stay in it.

[00:41:18] Matthew: Yeah, and I think that's like something that I wish I had done as well, is like, uh, kind of had up a little bit of a mirror of like, oh, I just said, I'll stick it out. That's an interesting phrase.

[00:41:32] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:41:33] Matthew: Like that, that phrase doesn't usually come with, and I enjoy what I'm doing. So that's something to explore.

[00:41:41] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:41:42] Matthew: And I guess I wish that, like, I wish that I'd taken a break after uni as well. I wish I'd done that. Yeah, I wish, I wish I hadn't have done psychology full time. I think five days a week, it's a lot.

[00:42:00] Bronwyn: Yeah, I don't think people realise it. I think we're coming to realise it. But, look, if I was doing 40 hours of retail and not to diminish the work that retail workers do, but having worked retail myself, I I could do 40 hours a week of retail and not probably on front desk like I used to work at Rebel Sport in a lot of hours a week and I would be at the back like putting, uh, sizes on clothes and then I'd go out the front. You can kind of go between. But anyway, I could do it. With psychology, I feel like we're still carrying over this societal expectation that we should be working 40 hours a week. But for psychology, I just don't think you can long term.

[00:42:42] Matthew: I, agreed. One, I'm, yes.

[00:42:48] Bronwyn: Yep. I, I, yeah, I, I just don't think if you're doing client facing work, like, and of course there are going to be people who, who can. And they're like, yep, I do it. And it's great. And, and great. Um, fantastic. I reckon that, like, if you think of it like a bell curve, I reckon the middle part, a lot of folks would find it tough and I think I'm in that middle part.

[00:43:09] Matthew: I agree with you, I have been in that middle part, continue to still be in that middle part. I totally agree with you. I, I think that for a lot of people, if you can do it, that's great. I think for a lot, no, like it's not. It's five days a week, like seeing five plus clients a day, plus everything else that we do. And it's very rarely, at least in my experience, it's very rare that like somebody has come in and is like, well, I want to talk about like the good things.

[00:43:41] Bronwyn: Yeah,

[00:43:44] Matthew: You know, there's something like a trauma process, something requires a lot of energy, a lot of concentration from us. It's taxing. It is a... it's a very difficult field to do, and in saying that, who knows, maybe in a year's time after my sabbatical and, you know, um, seeing a couple of clients here and there once, uh, once a week every now and then, um, maybe I'll be like, Okay, I'm ready to do psychology again, but for two days. Like, you know, yeah, I think that like, that's kind of, um, probably the next, what's the phrase? Like, next thing in psychology is like, can this be done full time? Like, what does each individual person need to help them to decide how often they do this thing called psychology?

[00:44:37] Bronwyn: Yeah, I've become very interested in that lately actually. So, um, the next few podcast episodes or maybe when this is published will be the previous podcast episodes, but I've started asking folks who are like 10, 15, 20 years into their career, how have you made this work? Because I've just been like, how? I don't get it. And the most frequent answer that I'm getting is that they diversify their practice heaps. So they might do one day of client facing work, Three days of planning workshops or delivering workshops. One day where they just hang out with the dog and do their favourite activities.

[00:45:11] Matthew: Love that.

[00:45:13] Bronwyn: So, it seems that diversification of the type of activities that you do seems to be what a lot of later career psychs do.

[00:45:23] Matthew: And you know what, that's interesting too, because I used to think like, oh if I just get to like year 10, and then year 15, and then year 20, I'll have enough experience to do that. And then I think like at year 6 I'm already done. You know what I mean? Like I think like at year 6 I'm already at the point where I'm like, I'm done. How am I going to get diversification? Like, at year six, how would I be like, running workshops and da da da, like, have my own clinic and da da da da da. Um, I don't know how those people, like, survived the first, like, six or so years to get to that level. It's, it's interesting.

[00:46:02] Bronwyn: No, same. Yeah, and there will be people who didn't. Like, you know, like, you wouldn't be alone. There would be so many people who we just haven't heard about who have been like, look, you know what? This isn't for me. I'm gonna switch.

[00:46:15] Matthew: Actually, I have a stat on that. Um, oh my gosh, a colleague and I actually just looked this up probably a month ago. We were, yeah, we were curious to see, wait, is it from APS? Okay, don't quote me on that. I have a feeling it might be APS. Somebody look it up.

[00:46:31] Um, we wanted to know how many psychologists, like, leave. After full registration in Australia, how many leave? It was 44 percent of registered psychologists in Australia make it to their fifth year.

[00:46:46] Bronwyn: Wow, that's, that's crazy.

[00:46:50] Matthew: That is, it's like, quite literally nuts, right? Like, under half. I'm pretty sure it the APS. Anyway, somebody will find it. Yeah, under half made it to year five.

[00:47:01] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:47:03] Matthew: That's, isn't, like, that's terrifying. That was one of those, um, as I was mentioning earlier, there were a lot of dots connecting. That was one of the dots, right? It was, I was like, well, time to do research. Oh, under half. Oh, that's a dot.

[00:47:16] Bronwyn: it's really funny you saying this because as you're saying it, I'm thinking, why don't I know this? Because I know, for example, that many teachers leave teaching in the first two years of practice. And I've heard that repeated over and over again. I can't remember the exact statistic, but it's quite high. And I know that about teachers. Why don't I know that about my own profession?

[00:47:38] Matthew: Right?

[00:47:41] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:47:41] Matthew: Yeah. Right? Like, there's so many things about other professions that we know. Like, I, um, I think we all know that, like, dentists are the, like, most, or, like, likely profession to, um, like, end their life. Right? How do I know that, but I didn't know prior to, like, a month or so ago, how many psychs actually make it to year five?

[00:48:02] Like, what?

[00:48:05] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's, it's pretty nuts. I do think that there's an absence of research in the area of, um, clinician well being, um, particularly for psychologists. I, yeah, I don't actually think there's that much research into it. I think there's a bit of research about how to help early career psychs while they're still training to engage in self compassion and self care because those things have been shown to be linked to better outcomes, that sort of thing. But there's nothing to my knowledge or much about like sustainability in the profession.

[00:48:37] Matthew: And I think like, um, it's so funny that you say that because that was one of the episodes that made me go Oh, I need to reach out to Bron, right? It was like a year ago or so that there was that sustainability episode that you did. That was, uh, one of the episodes, that was also actually one of the dots. Right? That was like one of the points in time where I was like, Oh, things are colliding. Uh oh. Uh, where I was like, wait, yeah, what is the sustainability in this career? Like, how does that, how does that even work? Like, what does it look like? Like, am I going to be doing this until I'm like 70? Like five days a week working like trauma, anxiety, whatever. Is that what I'm going to be doing? What does that mean?

[00:49:19] Bronwyn: Yeah. 100%. So, Matthew, what advice would you give to early career psychs who might be experiencing similar feelings to you, like burnout or wondering if it'd be a good decision for them to take a break or leave the profession?

[00:49:36] Matthew: I would say explore that. Don't... please don't do what I do, did, and throw yourself further into the profession, take on more clients. Please explore that, and I would say actually outside of psychology, explore it, right?

[00:49:54] Like, of course it can be helpful to explore it in supervision, and with colleagues, and at the same time, in my experience, I found that there was like, almost like it was a taboo, like to discuss the potential of leaving psychology or taking a break at least. Um, yeah, it was like a taboo. It was really weird actually. So I would say please explore that with people outside of psych who know you, your family and friends, partners. Um, go see a psych if you're not seeing somebody explore it with them.

[00:50:26] Like, I am doing this or I'm studying this. I'm in this year of it. I dunno if I wanna do this. Blah, like explore it as much as you can. And I guess knowing as well that it is okay to finish, like if you're still doing degrees, it's okay to finish those degrees. If you're year one or two or three of psychology, it's okay to still do those. And I would encourage you to figure out a way of like, so how am I going to do this sustainably, right? Like I know burnout's coming and you can prepare for that as much as you want and da da da da da. And sustainably, how am I actually going to be able to do this career?

[00:51:09] Bronwyn: Absolutely. And is there any one thing that you hope listeners will take away from our conversation today?

[00:51:16] Matthew: -think the thing I'm hoping people will take away is that it's okay to, it's okay to actually take a break. It's okay to have chosen a path or a door that no longer works for you. It's okay to stop and go, I don't know. It's okay to feel like that. It's not weird, it's not taboo, there's nothing wrong with it. You're allowed to think that, you're allowed to feel that.

[00:51:44] Bronwyn: And I hope listeners will take that away too. I do think we should talk about it more because I've also felt like it's taboo. Literally, last semester I was in some group supervision and I was thinking of leaving and I said to my supervision group, look, I am thinking of leaving the profession, but I don't think the group can handle talking about this. And so I like projected my thing and I was like, I don't think you guys can handle it. Um, and then they were like, oh no, we can handle it. And then we talked about it and I was like, wow, okay, this is shocking and surprising. And I'm really glad that we talked about this.

[00:52:16] Yeah. Yeah. Cause I was fully like shutting myself down. I was like, look, like, um, I don't, you know, this is just like, that's been in my mind, but I don't even know if I should bring it up sort of thing. I'm thinking of leaving. Don't think it's, you know, it's good for the group. And they're like, Oh no. So yeah, it's like, it was, it was surprising and it was good.

[00:52:39] Matthew: I'm so curious now for you, how do you feel after that interaction? How do you feel from their response?

[00:52:46] Bronwyn: Hmm. How did I feel? Let me try and remember and reflect. I remember feeling good that we had talked about it. Um, and I remember feeling like everybody is having these thoughts and, or has had these thoughts in the past. So that was pretty much what we got to in that discussion, which was okay for me. I'm glad we got that far.

[00:53:08] Matthew: And um, where are you, At the moment with psychology, I'm so curious now.

[00:53:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's interesting because I run a psychology podcast. Um, but yeah, no, I am thinking, I am thinking of leaving. Um, I don't know if this profession will be for me long term, I think I would have to try and do something different to make it work for me. I don't know if it's possible.

[00:53:37] Yeah, I just, like you, it was interesting hearing you talk about these doors and it's like, maybe I just shouldn't have kept on pushing when the doors were closed. I shouldn't have kept on trying to open them, much like you said, because I did have several moments where people were saying things that indicated that like, you know, this door's closed to you sort of thing. And I was like, no, I'm going to push it open and keep going. Maybe I should have gone to something else. Like, yeah. And I'm good at my job. I'm good at what I do, but I don't know, maybe there's something else.

[00:54:13] Matthew: I agree with you, and I guess you, you don't have to include any of that questioning. I was actually just purely curious, right, um, but you know, include whatever you want to, of course. Coming away from that for a second, that's, it's even validating for me to hear that from you, right? That like, again, it's that normalizing of like, sometimes we do all these studies and all these trainings and da da da da da and we can still get to a point where we go, I actually don't know if this is for me over the long term and that that is so okay.

[00:54:49] Like, I think it's more fascinating to think about, so the doors that I tried to force open, the doors that I like spent so much energy keeping ajar just to get to this point in the profession, what, what was forcing me? What, what was, what was it about me, right, that was making me keep those doors ajar?

[00:55:14] Why didn't I put... why didn't I take the energy that it took to keep that door ajar and put it elsewhere, right? Like I think that's so interesting to explore that. So yeah, I love that. I love that you mentioned that. That was so validating even just for me. But I hope for listeners too that they're able to reflect on like, oh, yeah, like here's two people talking about forcing doors open that were closed Wait, am I doing that? Like, how much energy am I spending on doors?

[00:55:44] Bronwyn: Yeah. I often think of those doors and I'm like, if I just allowed them to stay shut, then maybe I could have found another career path where I would have been more welcome. And it wouldn't have had to have been so hard. Um, yeah. So it's like, yeah, when you're saying like, why did we keep pushing? I think I kept on pushing because I was like, Oh, maybe I can change. Like I can be an internal change for good, but maybe I don't have to be. Maybe I could just go where I was already accepted and welcomed.

[00:56:14] Matthew: Oh, I love that reflection.

[00:56:17] Bronwyn: Well, Matthew, is there anything else that you wanted to share with listeners about this quite interesting time of your life?

[00:56:24] Matthew: Yes, I would say really keep an eye on my drag page. Book me if you can, because I am hoping to get onto RuPaul's Drag Race. I would love that to be my career. Right?

[00:56:41] Bronwyn: That'd be incredible. I'm rooting for you. I hope. Oh my gosh, yes, show me the petition, like, I don't know, give me the people, I'll, I'll do anything.

[00:56:50] Matthew: Well, Um, but yeah, like the more people that like book me and promote me and whatever, the more the producers notice me. So talking about, you know, starting a new career, this is what I'm hoping to like put my passion into. So please like follow me, book me, all that good stuff. I want to get into this more.

[00:57:12] Bronwyn: Excellent. Lovely. Well, I'll pop those links in the show notes to the lovely Matilda Mercury. And yeah, thank you so much, Matt, for coming on and talking with us and sharing these experiences. I'm really grateful and appreciative.

[00:57:27] Matthew: Thank you.

[00:57:28] Bronwyn: Listeners, thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And If you or anybody else you know would benefit from listening, do put it in their ears. It's the best way for people to learn about the podcast and to hear it. If you enjoyed the episode as well, do leave us a five star rating and review. Otherwise, that's a wrap. Thanks so much for listening to Mental Work. Have a good one and catch you next time. Bye!